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University Applications Fall 10% In A Year
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Studying in Finland may not be your thing and I don't know what degree majors are on offer but it is worth checking out what possibilities there are for further study in the EU generally for those with an EU membership passport. The information below would need to be verified but if you can fund your way through the living costs, then Finland looks a whole lot cheaper than the UK, especially for a first degree or Ph.D.

It's true that status is a consideration, particularly if you want to get higher qualifications in the English teaching field as many employers want people with degrees from English speaking countries. However, I'm pretty sure universities in the UK are ranked according to research and not the quality of courses/ teaching on offer.

http://www.studyinfinland.fi/tuition_and_scholarships
Tuition and fees info

http://www.studyinfinland.fi/study_options/studying_finnish
"Learning Finnish makes living easier
Though it is possible to take a degree in Finland only using English, it is worthwhile to learn some Finnish as well
".

http://www.studyinfinland.fi/living_in_finland/before_your_arrival/residence_permits
"EU/EEA citizens, as well as citizens of the Nordic countries, do not usually need a residence permit – they must, however, register their residence in Finland at a police station if their stay in Finland exceeds three months (for Nordic citizens, six months)".
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Perilla



Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 783
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I did my UK degree (Keele, early 80s), I received a grant of about 1,500 pounds a year and there were no fees. I finished my three years there with an overdraft of just 400 pounds or so, despite having had a fairly debauched time. (Also worth mentioning that I didn't do any holiday jobs during that time, partly as we were able to claim unemployment support during the summer holiday - but also because then, as now, holiday jobs were hard to find).

A waste of time mentioning it perhaps, yet it puts in perspective how much things have changed in so short a period.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perilla wrote:
When I did my UK degree (Keele, early 80s), I received a grant of about 1,500 pounds a year and there were no fees. I finished my three years there with an overdraft of just 400 pounds or so, despite having had a fairly debauched time. (Also worth mentioning that I didn't do any holiday jobs during that time, partly as we were able to claim unemployment support during the summer holiday - but also because then, as now, holiday jobs were hard to find).

A waste of time mentioning it perhaps, yet it puts in perspective how much things have changed in so short a period.


Yes, and back in the 80s when you did your degree - I did mine then too - you were pretty much assured of getting a job, and not just a short-term gig, but something with longer term prospects. Not anymore. If you're lucky enough to get a job at a British university, it would likely be a 2-month summer contract or a contract that pays peanuts working for a bunch of corporate cowboys like INTO.

Here's the latest on the drop in university applications:

University applications have dropped by 8.7% as students look to avoid increased tuition fees which come into force this summer.

UCAS figures have shown that overall applications dropped to 583,546 (-7.4%) with a fall of just under 10% from English students. This comes as tuition fees are set to rise to £9000 per annum for students starting higher education in September.

The hugely unpopular increase was made as the government cut English university budgets by £449m in February 2010.


And the article continues with a quote from University & Science Minister David Willetts:

"The proportion of English school leavers applying to university today is greater than ever before, barring last year," said Universities and Science Minister David Willetts.

“Even with a small reduction in applications, this will still be a competitive year like any other as people continue to understand that University remains a good long-term investment in your future," he added.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/university-applications-drop-8-7--as-tuition-fees-increase.html

"Remains a good long-term investment." Really? If I was a student today I'd be thinking of doing my degree In Holland. Actually, I'd seriously be thinking of whether a university education was worth the investment at all. At least if I went on the dole, I wouldn't be burdened with thousands of pounds worth of debt upon graduation and no way of paying it back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mouse_degrees
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 762
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The good news today comes from the City and Guilds vocational education organisation , as it announced an increase in the number of people registering for courses.

Chief executive, Chris Jones, said today " As university applications decline, City and Guilds has seen a significant rise in the number of students opting for vocational courses in traditional industries such as manufacturing, agriculture and engineering.
Over the past year, the number of students applying for manufacturing courses has risen by 250%. There has also been a rise in learners opting for agriculture (49%) and aeronautical engineering (25%) as well as service sectors such as hospitality and catering (27%).
Students are increasingly opting for vocational courses that will equip them with the skills and training they need to progress onto skilled employment - something that is not surprising, given the high levels of graduate unemployment". (Evening Standard, 30th Jan)

Universities are also worried that teenagers may be mistakenly thinking they have to pay for fees when they register at university. Students actually pay their fees with a student loan, which they do not start repaying until they graduate and earn more than 21,000 GB pounds.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:
Universities are also worried that teenagers may be mistakenly thinking they have to pay for fees when they register at university. Students actually pay their fees with a student loan, which they do not start repaying until they graduate and earn more than 21,000 GB pounds.


Well, if that's the case, I wouldn't encourage our young students to go into TEFL because they'd have a hard time earning "more than 21, GB pounds" upon graduation. In fact, they would have a job earning that in the prime of their career . . . that's of course if they were lucky enough to get a job in this country that pays more than £8 per hour!
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 762
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slap andtickle wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't encourage our young students to go into TEFL because they'd have a hard time earning more than 21 GB pounds upon graduation


In the UK students do not do TEFL as a first degree. They do a first degree (in whatever) then do a 4 week introductory certificate (CELTA) and expect a fortune.
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Perilla



Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 783
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slapntickle wrote:
Yes, and back in the 80s when you did your degree - I did mine then too - you were pretty much assured of getting a job, and not just a short-term gig, but something with longer term prospects. Not anymore.


Ah, there I will have to differ! That may apply to graduates of the later 80s, but my experience - and that of many or even most of my fellow graduates of '83 and '84 - was that decent graduate-type jobs were very hard to find. I spent 83-85 doing a mixture of p/t and temp jobs including holiday courier, barman, labourer, A level tutor and conservation project assistant.

Then in '85 I went to London, where I found better paid work but it was still temporary in nature - no sign of a f/t, degree-oriented career job in sight. In '90 I basically gave up and went travelling in South America for a year and soon after my TEFL career began. Twenty years on and here I am in HK - I never found that elusive "proper job" in the UK and now I know I never will, resourceful chap though I am.

While most of my old uni friends are still in the UK I have to say that very few of them found what you'd call good career jobs. In fact my highest-paid friend in the UK doesn't have a degree. It may be that the graduates of 83 and 84 faced a particularly tough period with the country under Thatcher's brutal regime and in recession, but I'd be interested to know whether graduates in later years (except those from top unis or with professional degrees) fared much better.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:
The good news today comes from the City and Guilds vocational education organisation , as it announced an increase in the number of people registering for courses.

Chief executive, Chris Jones, said today " As university applications decline, City and Guilds has seen a significant rise in the number of students opting for vocational courses in traditional industries such as manufacturing, agriculture and engineering.
Over the past year, the number of students applying for manufacturing courses has risen by 250%. There has also been a rise in learners opting for agriculture (49%) and aeronautical engineering (25%) as well as service sectors such as hospitality and catering (27%).
Students are increasingly opting for vocational courses that will equip them with the skills and training they need to progress onto skilled employment - something that is not surprising, given the high levels of graduate unemployment". (Evening Standard, 30th Jan)


This is all very well, but the report only mentions that there has been "a significant rise in the number of students opting for vocational courses . . . " Like much shoddy reporting today, the numbers don't quite tell the whole story. It doesn't for example tell us the total number that applied and the total number that failed to get places. In an online story today, the headline is '3000 apply to be hotel apprentices'. Here are the 'facts':

A junior management apprenticeship programme launched by budget hotel firm Travelodge has attracted more than 3,000 applications in recent weeks - 66 for every position.
The company said it had been "overwhelmed" by the high calibre of people trying to gain a place on the programme, with the most popular areas including London, Liverpool, Glasgow and Birmingham.
Michelle Luxford, Travelodge's human resources director, said: "The demand for our apprenticeship programme and hotel positions is like nothing I have ever seen before in my career.
"We have had candidates from all corners of the UK applying for a place on our programme. The intake to the programme this year is three times bigger than it was last year.
"So eager are today's youngsters that they are texting, tweeting, emailing, visiting our Facebook and Linkedin sites to ensure their application has been received."
Travelodge will hire 120 apprentices this year to join an existing group of 35 who started in 2011, and plans to open 41 hotels this year, creating 1,000 new jobs.


"66 for every position", meaning that 65 lose out. And do these positions pay? Probably not. They only train people for jobs that may or may not exist in the future. Some might see this as an attempt by Travelodge to hire cheap labour and keep their costs at "budget" prices? Maybe they're unable to compete with Premier Inn?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/3-000-apply-hotel-apprentices-165032511.html

Another story similar to the one above appeared in 2010 when BT advertised for 221 apprenticeship places. Guess what? 24,000 applied.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/business-news/24_000_youngsters_apply_for_221_bt_apprenticeships_1_2584738

You really would have to be dedicated to get one of those very scarce places.
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 762
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

City and Guilds vocational courses are NOT the same as apprenticeships!
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:
City and Guilds vocational courses are NOT the same as apprenticeships!


Not the same, but similar. You seem to be saying that while university applications are down, the city and guilds vocational course will take up the slack. This is good, but will there be jobs for graduating students in the areas of manufacturing, agriculture, engineering, hospitality and catering at the end of their courses? Travelodge are in the hospitality trade, but they were flooded with applications for their 120 apprenticeships. The Standard article you quote has this to say:

Students are increasingly opting for vocational courses that will equip them with the skills and training they need to progress onto skilled employment . . .

So am I right in thinking that both the Standard and yourself are saying that vocational skills are the answer to the UK's unemployment woes? This of course is nonsense. The fact of the matter is that there are very few jobs out there, whether academic or vocational. Haven't you heard that Britain doesn't make anything anymore?

Before moving to Yale and becoming a bestselling historian, Paul Kennedy grew up on Tyneside in the 50s and 60s. "A world of great noise and much dirt," is how he remembers it, where the chief industry was building ships and his father and uncles were boilermakers in Wallsend. Last year the academic gave a lecture that reminisced a little about those days.

"There was a deep satisfaction about making things," he said. "A deep satisfaction among all of those that had supplied the services, whether it was the local bankers with credit; whether it was the local design firms. When a ship was launched at [Newcastle firm] Swan Hunter all the kids at the local school went to see the thing our fathers had put together and when we looked down from the cross-wired fence, tried to find Uncle Mick, Uncle Jim or your dad, this notion of an integrated, productive community was quite astonishing."

Wandering around Wallsend a couple of weeks ago, I didn't spot any ships being launched, or even built. The giant yard Kennedy mentioned, Swan Hunter, shut a few years back, leaving acres of muddy wasteland that still haven't lured a buyer.


Yes, for many of our poor students, whether academic or vocational, the only future they can honestly contemplate is one that resembles not so much a muddy wasteland, but certainly a desolate one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/16/why-britain-doesnt-make-things-manufacturing
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morrisonhotel wrote:
Dedicated wrote:


In Holland, the tuition per year is about 12,000 Euros for an EU student.

I fear the days of "free"education are over in these days of world recession.


12,000? I've applied to three universities in the Netherlands for studying for a master's (Utrecht, Amsterdam and Maastricht). The fees are about about a sixth of what you have written above. B.A. fees at Utrecht per year, for example, are 1713 euros per semester for EU students.


Yes, it seems that the Netherlands is becoming a serious competitor to British Universities, especially as 4 of their top schools have just made it onto the TES Top 100 Ranked Universities in the World. The 4 universities mentioned in the list are: Delft University of Technology(51), The University of Amsterdam(71), Leiden University(87) and Wageningen University(100). Other universities in Scandinavia and Western Europe are also starting to make an appearance. One wonders how much longer British universities can hold onto their position in the League before they face relegation to the 2nd Division?

http://www.ucu.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=6025

*The TES table of 100 Top Universities used 13 performance indicators, grouped into five areas, to determine global ranking. They are listed below:

1. Teaching — the learning environment (worth 30% of the overall ranking score)
2. Research — volume, income and reputation (worth 30 per cent)
3. Citations — research influence (worth 30 per cent)
4. Industry income — innovation (worth 2.5 per cent)
5. International outlook — staff, students and research (worth 7.5%t).
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 762
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The latest new ranking table of 15th March is based on REPUTATION alone, following a worldwide survey amongst academics.

That is totally different from the other TES criteria.

Surely, the task of a university is to achieve interesting things for humanity, not to be number 3 or 333 in a league table? Even 3,333 is still making a contribution to improving lives!
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