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Qualifications!
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rtm



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 613
Location: US

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Can *anyone* point to some solid academic research done by non-Japanese at a Japanese university in the last year? As in, peer reviewed & published in a real academic journal that actually contributed to human knowledge. Anyone? I just had a quick look on Lexis Nexis and couldn't see anything for the last twelve months.

There are some. The work of Peter Robinson at Aoyama Gakuin University is the first that came to mind.
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jmatt



Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rtm wrote:
HLJHLJ wrote:
There are different expectations in different countries. Masters in the USA seem to be a different breed to those elsewhere. In many countries research at Masters level is expected and as such, publications are expected.
....
So if you've done a Masters and have no publications it will often be assumed that you somehow screwed up and that your research wasn't good enough publish.

Thank you for that information. I didn't know that publications were expected from all MA graduates in the UK.

In my experience in the US, research opportunities for MA students are available, but only if the student makes an effort to take advantage of them. However, to continue on for a PhD, students typically must have research experience.

Glenski wrote:

Quote:
In my experience in the US, the vast majority of MA students don't have opportunities to get anything published. For most language teachers at US universities who only have a masters (e.g., IEP teachers), the only grants they generally apply for are from their university/college, and publications aren't necessarily required for those.
So who needs a grant to do research or get published?

I didn't say that a grant is necessary to do research. My comment was in response to:
Glenski wrote:

Publishing in many fields (in Japan and elsewhere) is necessary to prove academic worth to get grants, not just promotions.


Quote:
Quote:
Of the MA students that I know in the US in TESOL/Applied Linguistics/Second Language Studies, etc.), very, very few have gotten research published; I also only know a few who have presented at conferences.
Is that because it is not expected or required, or for some other reason? Also, I'm not talking about MA students but teachers.

It's neither expected nor required for MA graduates to publish in the US.
I should have said "recent MA graduates", rather than "students" (the people I'm thinking of were students when I knew them best, so I still imagine them as students, although they are teachers now).

Quote:
Quote:
So, I'm a bit confused by your comment that you are "a little surprised that with the degrees she has, that she has not published yet," especially when she already said that her degree did not involve research.
I don't think she said that, did she?


She said:
maggietulliver wrote:
I am a little (lot) concerned, as I did a coursework MA (in TESOL) and would like to work at a university in Japan.
(emphasis mine)
I took that to mean that it was a 'taught' MA rather than a 'research' MA. If I misunderstood, I apologize; however, it appears others understood it that way, too. Though, from what HLJHLJ says, a 'taught' MA may still involve research, so maybe she does have research experience.

There are, of course, 2 different situations here -- maggie's MA from Australia(?), where publication may or may not be expected of MA graduates, and jmatt's and my experiences in the US.


I think that in the TESOL field in the US, many MA/M.Ed TESOL programs are geared towards classroom experience and actually teaching, as opposed to the research required in MA Linguistic programs that are more concentrated on the linguistic side of things. So, therefore, there isn't usually an emphasis on research and publishing.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
"Publishing" in the JALT magazine doesn't count for anything IMO.
Yes, that's your opinion. However I think you do a great disservice to the esteemed members of the review panel there, especially by calling it a mere magazine. You might at least have the courtesy to use its proper name, JALT Journal.

Quote:
Can *anyone* point to some solid academic research done by non-Japanese at a Japanese university in the last year? As in, peer reviewed & published in a real academic journal that actually contributed to human knowledge.
Well, now, here is where we run into a problem, perhaps. It depends on how you actually value the human knowledge that came out of them and how you rate "solid academic research". How about I cite journals instead of articles? At least a couple must fit your description. They all had a non-Japanese publish in 2011 (2 in 2012). Sorry for being too lazy to cite authors, but I had 3 classes today (including 2 exams and 2 surveys to collect data for my own grant research), and I spent the weekend proofreading 3 scientific articles and reading half a dozen others just for my own benefit.

Language Learning
The Asian EFL Journal
CALICO Journal
TESOL Journal
ELT Journal
English for Specific Purposes
Modern English Teacher
Teacher and Teaching Education
Journal of English for Academic Purposes (2012, not 2011)
The Journal of International Education Research (2012, not 2011)
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1338
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
"Publishing" in the JALT magazine doesn't count for anything IMO.
Yes, that's your opinion. However I think you do a great disservice to the esteemed members of the review panel there, especially by calling it a mere magazine. You might at least have the courtesy to use its proper name, JALT Journal.


You're displaying the faux-academic pretensions that I'm alluding to IMO. It's *not* an academic journal. It might publish things occasionally (& IMO by accident) that have some real academic weight to them, but it's simply not what I call a real academic journal. JALT is an industry association, and the in-house magazine reflects that. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest, but pretending it's something else is just sad.

Hang on - aren't you on (or were on) the review panel for JALT?


Quote:

Quote:
Can *anyone* point to some solid academic research done by non-Japanese at a Japanese university in the last year? As in, peer reviewed & published in a real academic journal that actually contributed to human knowledge.
Well, now, here is where we run into a problem, perhaps. It depends on how you actually value the human knowledge that came out of them and how you rate "solid academic research".


Indeed, how it's quantified is the question. What can I say here? I don't use the Japanese or American standards. Let's go with that for starters. As in, the act of publishing does not in and of itself qualify any given article as "valuable".



Quote:

How about I cite journals instead of articles?


Nope. Misses the entire point I was making.

I don't doubt there are serious and valuable journals out there for ESL/EFL. All I'm saying is that there are precious few (to near none) non-Japanese people in Japan in the Japanese university system that do any real research and academic work. The vast majority of uni work by non-Japanese is simply eikaiwa. I was tying that to the peculiar Japanese notion (also held by you) that publishing is both normal and even desirable - peculiar given the context of the actual work done by the vast majority of non-Jpns in unis.
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Mr_Monkey



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rtm wrote:
Thank you for that information. I didn't know that publications were expected from all MA graduates in the UK.
They're not.

Look at the EAP jobs in the UK (BALEAP is a good site for this); yes, research is valued, but for university-level EAP work, publications are not a requirement. It may be the case if you're chasing a tenured position where you also teach TESOL/Applied Linguistics at the university.

Basically, it depends on what you want to do.
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 895

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_Monkey wrote:

Basically, it depends on what you want to do.


That's the crux of it in the UK.

EAP and ESL at HE level often come under academic support rather than academic teaching, and different rules can apply. Tutors may even find themselves on an administrative pay scale rather than an academic one. However, teacher training in either will still come under academic regulations and so will be subject to RAE/REF.

That side of things isn't directly comparable with EFL as a content subject in other countries.
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Mr_Monkey



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:
Mr_Monkey wrote:

Basically, it depends on what you want to do.


That's the crux of it in the UK.

EAP and ESL at HE level often come under academic support rather than academic teaching, and different rules can apply. Tutors may even find themselves on an administrative pay scale rather than an academic one. However, teacher training in either will still come under academic regulations and so will be subject to RAE/REF.

That side of things isn't directly comparable with EFL as a content subject in other countries.
Alternatively, they may find themselves farmed out to INTO, which kind of makes the whole getting qualified a moot point, but that's for a different forum.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Hang on - aren't you on (or were on) the review panel for JALT?
Nope.

Quote:
Quote:
How about I cite journals instead of articles?


Nope. Misses the entire point I was making.
And you missed my point that I was too tired and overworked to cite the actual articles which do indeed exist in all of those journals. Go to them and pick each one apart if it means that much to you.

Quote:
I don't doubt there are serious and valuable journals out there for ESL/EFL.
But you won't describe your standards and dismiss even American ones, so we won't know how you (one person, by the way) judge them. Where do you publish? What journals do you consider valuable? The way you wrote the above quote, it isn't clear whether you even know about such journals. In fact, it appears that you don't know.

Quote:
The vast majority of uni work by non-Japanese is simply eikaiwa.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't have time to go into any length on this.

Quote:
I was tying that to the peculiar Japanese notion (also held by you) that publishing is both normal and even desirable - peculiar given the context of the actual work done by the vast majority of non-Jpns in unis.
Call it peculiar if you will, but it is the way here, and since I'm in Japan, I go by its standards. Where are you again? If memory serves, you left Japan, but I'm not sure.


Quote:
Indeed, how it's quantified is the question. What can I say here? I don't use the Japanese or American standards. Let's go with that for starters. As in, the act of publishing does not in and of itself qualify any given article as "valuable".
Then this whole argument is moot. It seems that everything anyone can tell you is going to be dismissed. My participation in this thread is over.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1338
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
G Cthulhu wrote:
Hang on - aren't you on (or were on) the review panel for JALT?
Nope.

Quote:
Quote:
How about I cite journals instead of articles?


Nope. Misses the entire point I was making.
And you missed my point that I was too tired and overworked to cite the actual articles which do indeed exist in all of those journals. Go to them and pick each one apart if it means that much to you.


Completely disingenous from you: you offered an *excuse*, not a point. I specifically made a comment about Japan and also the JALT in house mag. For you to point out half a dozen other magazines and/or journals is beside the point entirely.



Quote:

Quote:
I don't doubt there are serious and valuable journals out there for ESL/EFL.
But you won't describe your standards and dismiss even American ones, so we won't know how you (one person, by the way) judge them. Where do you publish? What journals do you consider valuable? The way you wrote the above quote, it isn't clear whether you even know about such journals. In fact, it appears that you don't know.


Again, disingenous response from you IMO. We're having a discussion on Dave ESLcafe, not at a conference. You haven't asked for a description of standards before so why are you now ascribing motives or conslusions to it? I didn't notice you flopping out your own huge, pulsating qualifications in order to wow the crowds. You don't bother to explain why an individuals publication history is relevant to the point being made (Argumentum ad authoratum, Glen?) and more to the point, why on earth would I bother wading through the suggestions you gave to a *question I didn't ask*?!


Quote:

Quote:
The vast majority of uni work by non-Japanese is simply eikaiwa.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't have time to go into any length on this.

Quote:
I was tying that to the peculiar Japanese notion (also held by you) that publishing is both normal and even desirable - peculiar given the context of the actual work done by the vast majority of non-Jpns in unis.
Call it peculiar if you will, but it is the way here, and since I'm in Japan, I go by its standards. Where are you again? If memory serves, you left Japan, but I'm not sure.


Indeed. You apply those standards to Japan. And then comment with the same standards about people in other countries. Remember the part where you said it was strange how someone in Australia hadn't published? In fact, you said it several times even though other people were pointing out that it's not normal.


Quote:

Quote:
Indeed, how it's quantified is the question. What can I say here? I don't use the Japanese or American standards. Let's go with that for starters. As in, the act of publishing does not in and of itself qualify any given article as "valuable".
Then this whole argument is moot. It seems that everything anyone can tell you is going to be dismissed.


Serious question: is English your second language?

Your response simply doesn't make sense. You're actually giving an absolutist answer to a very limited statement. That is simply intellectually dishonest IMO.


Quote:
My participation in this thread is over.


Confused

Would you be interested in a thread (rather than have this one drift further) about the nature of uni work in Japan? Idea
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GambateBingBangBOOM



Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 1906
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_Monkey wrote:
rtm wrote:
Thank you for that information. I didn't know that publications were expected from all MA graduates in the UK.
They're not.

Look at the EAP jobs in the UK (BALEAP is a good site for this); yes, research is valued, but for university-level EAP work, publications are not a requirement. It may be the case if you're chasing a tenured position where you also teach TESOL/Applied Linguistics at the university.

Basically, it depends on what you want to do.


Same in Canada. I've known career university ESL instructors (over 20 years university teaching) who have never published a single thing. I don't think I've ever even seen an ad for university ESL instructors that specifies that you have to have published anything. People are hired to teach university ESL courses directly out of the university's MA in Applied Linguistics, without having ever published anything. In fact, if your goal is to be a university ESL teacher and NOT to become a teacher trainer (teaching TESL courses), then it is SUGGESTED that you do an all course-work masters degree so that you are as familiar with as many aspects of English language teaching as possible.

It's publish or perish at the teacher-training level (PhD), but where I'm from (Ontario, Canada) that's the THIRD step in your TESOL training, usually (1 one-year university CTESL [at least a couple of years of actually teaching ESL or EFL] 2 MA Applied Linguistics / TESOL 3. PhD. By the time you've finished your MA, you'll have double the amount of education in the area as anybody with an MA in TESOL or Applied Linguistics from the UK or Australia etc). The CTESL is where your practicum is and it's to teach in the government funded ESL program (LINC). It's ALSO the prerequisite for the MA in Applied Linguistics (TESOL) and finally is also fairly often taken as a leg up on applications to one-year B.Ed programs (because nearly every single person with a degree in, say English Literature applies. And then more than half of those who get in either never teach, or get out of teaching in the first three years).

Universities are crazy places in that tenured faculty have to publish. In fact, teaching is just something that gets in the way of their actual job- research. However, ESL teachers are called INSTRUCTORS and not professors for a reason. Their job is to teach. Presenting at conferences is great, and is encouraged after you have experience at the university level, but your job is to teach. It's not the same as being, say a tenured musicologist (music history professor). (side note: and for tenure itself in Canada, professor's former students are contacted and asked to fill out questionnaires about the prof's teaching etc, so tenure-ship is not JUST about publications at at least some universities).

Language teaching journals (including the JALT journals / magazines) are primarily targeted at university / college level instructors. And so JALT actually has a SIG specifically for the high school / jhs level. That's why in Canada (and probably at least part of why, apparently, in the UK as well) publications aren't required of university language instructors- especially newbies to it. How can they possibly expect you to write anything remotely intelligent about something you have no experience in? They can't. And so they don't. Not in most countries.
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