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2020 and all that!
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5682
Location: South China, by the sea.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

parnett wrote:
A few more points: Where is all the money going to come from to build the Olympic Village, sports venues and hotels?

The same people that have paid for other games: in this case, a combination of private investors and Turkish taxpayers. Read The Economist? They have a number of articles on Rio and their preparations. Cities that are bidding for future games don't have to re-invent the wheel.

Rio de Janeiro’s Olympics: The countdown starts
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Luxe



Joined: 08 Jul 2010
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

7969 wrote:

Luxe wrote:
Security would also be a serious concern, IMO.

Security's been a serious concern at every major international event for decades, moreso since 2001. What makes security in Istanbul more of a concern than other places that have held the Games recently or will hold them in future? It's closer to the Middle East? I'm sure Istanbul would do what every other city has done and review the "lessons learned" from past Games and plot their strategy accordingly.


Is this a joke or a serious question? Turkey is in a constant battle with the PKK, with 'terrorist' attacks a regular occurrence in the country, including just this morning in Gaziantep, where a bomb killed at least eight people and injured dozens. In the last decade, there have been bombings in Istanbul killing dozens. Not only is Turkey fighting insurgents within its borders, it is routinely fighting against attacks in Istanbul. You may choose to ignore that fact, but you can't honestly think the IOC is going to award Istanbul, a city with borderline third world infrastructure, located in a country that is fighting an internal war, and a city that is heavily militarized in order to fight against reoccurring attacks, over a city like Tokyo, which has amongst the best infrastructure anywhere in the world, a city that has proven itself capable of hosting and a city that is amongst the safest megacities in the world.

But, yes, I guess we can pretend that Istanbul is not a larger security risk than Madrid or Tokyo, despite all evidence to the contrary. There are metal detectors to go into a mall and routine bomb sweeping of vehicles before being permitted to enter many parking garages, FFS.

It is true that security is always a concern for host cities, but Istanbul would take that to an unprecedented level. Anyone who honestly thinks Istanbul is going to get these Games is fooling themselves.


Qaaolchoura wrote:
Luxe wrote:
The bids almost always go to cities with brilliant infrastructure that are able to accommodate the chaos that the Olympics bring to their cities.

Dude, come again?!


What part of almost always was confusing? Infrastructure is THE biggest factor in successfully hosting a Games, so it is of utmost importance that the city in question already has the necessary infrastructure or can reasonably be expected to be capable of building it within seven years. Seeing the shitshow that is Turkey, it's laughable to think Istanbul can pull it off in seven years.
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parnett



Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 111
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, well said Luxe.
I believe that several of the posters haven't been in Istanbul in a long time, or maybe they have never been there.
I had completely forgotten about the PKK although I doubt they would make their presence known. Of course, a lot can change in 8 years.
Turkey is one of the most nationalistic countries I have ever been in (and I have been in plenty). Say something negative about the country or its religion in front of the wrong people (especially after they'd had a few Efes Pilseners), and you might find yourself fighting for your life. Perhaps, if Istanbul were awarded the Olympics, banning alcohol in the city might not be a bad thought. Turks are drunk after 2 beers, and then they go looking for a fight. Not a good environment for a world event.
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5682
Location: South China, by the sea.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luxe wrote:
7969 wrote:

Luxe wrote:
Security would also be a serious concern, IMO.

Security's been a serious concern at every major international event for decades, moreso since 2001. What makes security in Istanbul more of a concern than other places that have held the Games recently or will hold them in future? It's closer to the Middle East? I'm sure Istanbul would do what every other city has done and review the "lessons learned" from past Games and plot their strategy accordingly.

Is this a joke or a serious question?

Note my location, I'm not in Turkey so yeah it was a legitimate question.

Having said that, here's a precedent. Sochi was awarded the 2014 Winter Games and it's hardly in a peaceful neighbourhood being next to Chechnya, Daghestan and just a few miles from Abkhazia. The Russians flattened Grozny in the last decade, and they fought a war against separatist rebels in Abkhazia just a few years ago. The threat of terrorism in Russia and Sochi exists and yet the IOC still voted to give Russia the Games.

Russia 'foils Islamist plot to attack Sochi 2014 Winter Olympics'

parnett wrote:
Turkey is one of the most nationalistic countries I have ever been in (and I have been in plenty). Say something negative about the country or its religion in front of the wrong people (especially after they'd had a few Efes Pilseners), and you might find yourself fighting for your life.

People made this claim against China before they had the Games (and still say it today). Guess how many incidents of nationalist violence were reported during the Beijing Olympics in 2008? Zero. The global spotlight shining down on an entire country has a magical way of making people show their good side, even if for only a couple of weeks. It's important to remember that the IOC members who vote to award the games come from a variety of countries and backgrounds and don't necessarily have the same viewpoint any of us have on the topic, and while taking bribes is officially out Laughing they sometimes vote in blocs so it'll be interesting to see how it all unfolds next year. Ultimately I have no stake in all this, I won't be at the 2020 Games wherever they are, and I'm not even a big Olympic fan (a few events aside), but I did think this discussion might be interesting.
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Luxe



Joined: 08 Jul 2010
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7969 wrote:

Having said that, here's a precedent. Sochi was awarded the 2014 Winter Games and it's hardly in a peaceful neighbourhood being next to Chechnya, Daghestan and just a few miles from Abkhazia. The Russians flattened Grozny in the last decade, and they fought a war against separatist rebels in Abkhazia just a few years ago. The threat of terrorism in Russia and Sochi exists and yet the IOC still voted to give Russia the Games.


How many people have been killed by bombs in Sochi in the last decade? How routine are security checks in Sochi in relation to Istanbul? How routine are bomb sweeps of vehicles before pulling into a parking garage in Sochi? How routine are metal detectors and searching of bags before entering such mundane establishments as shopping malls? Right. There is no city that has ever been awarded an Olympic Games that is comparable to the situation in Istanbul.
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billy orr



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I am most definitely in Turkey and have been for an extremely long time. I am certain that İstanbul is perfectly capable of putting on an excellent olympic games if they get the chance. The arguments concerning nationalism, terrorism and competernce are applicable to other candidate countries. Similar concerns were voiced for London, Beijing and Athens.
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Qaaolchoura



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luxe wrote:

What part of almost always was confusing? Infrastructure is THE biggest factor in successfully hosting a Games, so it is of utmost importance that the city in question already has the necessary infrastructure or can reasonably be expected to be capable of building it within seven years. Seeing the shitshow that is Turkey, it's laughable to think Istanbul can pull it off in seven years.

I don't know where you're getting this idea about infrastructure, but of the four games held in the 21st century, two were/will be held in developing countries, and one was held in Athens, a city that's not known for good infrastructure. Choosing Beijing and Rio was clearly about acknowledging the rising power of those countries, and the exact same logic extends towards Istanbul's bid.

But from the rest of your posts here I get the strong impression you're one of those rare individuals who somehow developed a remarkable antipathy towards Turkey.

parnett wrote:
Once again, well said Luxe.
I believe that several of the posters haven't been in Istanbul in a long time, or maybe they have never been there.

And where are you? I'm in Istanbul right now (before I go back over to Antep) and while public transit isn't half as nice as Izmir, it's a far cry from Beijing. Hell, public transit here is better than some American cities (though I doubt Miami, say, would ever consider bidding for the games).

Regards,
~Q
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parnett



Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 111
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I left Istanbul 18 months ago after spending 12 years there. I doubt much has changed.
The last two posters believe that Istanbul would solve all the problems and do an outstanding job as hosts of the Summer Olympics. Just how will the security, electrical, transportation and accommodation problems (along with a myriad of others) be rectified?
Being a one time bookie, I would place the over/under of people killed in Istanbul during the Olympics at 50. Any bettors out there?
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billy orr



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q, you are so right. You have got to know this country very well in a fairly short time.

Parnett, all those problems would be solved they way they are solved anywhere, by money and hard work. Turkey has plenty of both.

I do not recognise the Turkey you portray, it is not the country that I live in.
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Qaaolchoura



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Orr, thanks.
I've been all around Turkey, and mostly to non-touristy areas (I don't frankly much care for beaches and nightclubs). While I certainly don't claim to be nearly as familiar with the country as a long term resident or a native Turk, I will say that I get to see far more things and hear a wider variety of stories than I would have if I'd hung around in Istanbul or Izmir the whole time.

That said the topic at hand is specifically Istanbul, and parnett certainly has me beat for experience in the city, in which I've spent a cumulative total of about three months. Though I don't know the details of their experience, I can certainly see how spending 12 years in the city would lead one to develop a negative opinion of the place, especially if they lived in the European side.

But I don't agree that parnett's criticisms are more valid for Turkey than for Beijing, Rio, or even Athens (I've seen more "don't drink the water" and "don't flush the toilet paper" signs in Greece than in Turkey, and I'm frankly amazed that Greece somehow passes for a developed country).

parnett wrote:
I left Istanbul 18 months ago after spending 12 years there. I doubt much has changed.

I'm amazed that you didn't notice the changes that happened in those twelve years, but I will say that my first visit to Istanbul was a year ago, and in the intervening time there's been a couple new metro lines added.

parnett wrote:

Being a one time bookie, I would place the over/under of people killed in Istanbul during the Olympics at 50. Any bettors out there?

I'm not the betting kind, but I'm sorely tempted.

Regards,
~Q
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sixthchild



Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Posts: 276
Location: East of Eden

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Well this topic has generated a lot more interest than I expected, so I would like to offer my 50 kurus worth. I see that of the three cities competing for the honour Toyko has the most experience of holding the games and for that reason will NOT be selected, IOC committies will have to choose between Madrid and Istanbul, that seems clear enough to me. The reasons why Istanbul SHOULD be chosen have already been stated so no need to repeat them and I agree with them totally.
Now can anyone offer any good reasons why they think Madrid will get the vote? I can't!!!

Btw Q and Billy I think you seem to have the right idea about Istanbul's chances, parnett has allowed resentment to cloud his judgement.
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parnett



Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 111
Location: China

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resentment???????????????????? What do I resent??? I look at the situation realistically (along with several other posters who must also be full of resentment). To you people who think Istanbul could and will host the Olympics, you are certainly entitled to your opinion (unless you live in Turkey). Each of you has stated that the multitude of problems facing the city will be solved, yet not one of you has offered one iota of info as to how they will be solved. The teaching profession isn't the correct line of work for you people. You should be in politics.
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billy orr



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="parnett" To you people who think Istanbul could and will host the Olympics, you are certainly entitled to your opinion (unless you live in Turkey). [/quote]

I live in Turkey. Does that mean I am not entitled to my opinion?
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5682
Location: South China, by the sea.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

parnett wrote:
Resentment???????????????????? What do I resent??? I look at the situation realistically (along with several other posters who must also be full of resentment).

Several? Only one other poster on the thread agreed with what you had to say.

parnett wrote:
To you people who think Istanbul could and will host the Olympics, you are certainly entitled to your opinion (unless you live in Turkey). Each of you has stated that the multitude of problems facing the city will be solved, yet not one of you has offered one iota of info as to how they will be solved.

Here are some highlights from the Istanbul Olympic Bid:

Sports Venues:

Quote:
2.2 - 2.4 The carefully conceived venues plan for Istanbul 2020 strikes the ideal balance between providing optimal conditions for Games clients, showcasing the most spectacular features of the historic city and achieving alignment with the longterm urban planning requirements of the city for maximum sustainability. The result is a compact Master Plan organised in four zones of the city, each with a compelling sustainability theme, and within which there are seven clusters and five precincts. The composition of each zone is depicted in Map A and further explained in the table preceding the additional B Maps. The following combination of 36 venues is proposed, featuring maximum use of existing high-quality and temporary venues:

-11 existing venues, 5 requiring some permanent works, 10 Games competition venues planned for construction to meet community and elite training requirements, 5 temporary venues, 10 additional permanent venues.

In addition, a single, existing stand-alone venue is proposed and five Regional Football cities have been nominated, from which three host cities will be selected during the Candidature Phase. Potential venues for each of the additional sports under consideration for the 2020 sport programme have also been identified and can be accommodated within the four zones of the Master Plan. Istanbul Olympic Park Precinct, at the heart of the Olympic City Cluster, will accommodate ten venues and nine sports:

- The existing Atatürk Olympic Stadium, to be upgraded for Olympic and Paralympic Athletics (Track and Field) competition.
- The Olympic Aquatic Centre, a permanent three-pool complex, expanded for the Games for Olympic Swimming, Diving and Synchronized Swimming competition, as well as Paralympic Swimming. Adjacent to the permanent venue, the Olympic Water Polo Stadium, a temporary venue, will be constructed for Olympic Water Polo.
- The Bosphorus Rowing Centre, a permanent venue for Olympic and Paralympic Rowing and Canoe-Kayak (Sprint) and Olympic Aquatics (Swimming Marathon) competitions, providing a legacy for these sports and water-based recreational activities.

Accommodation:

Quote:
4.3 Istanbul’s existing accommodation stock of more than 63,000 rooms comfortably meets the requirement of 40,000 rooms for accredited Games visitors with a wide variety of accommodation types, prices and locations, and is expected to exceed 96,000 rooms at Games-time. The diversity and growth of hotel capacity has been fuelled by the popularity of Turkey as a tourist destination, with 30 million international tourists in 2011, an increase of more than 200% over ten years, with sustained growth anticipated. According to the UN World Tourism Organisation and the International Congress and Convention Association, Turkey is the seventh most popular tourist destination in the world and Istanbul is the seventh most visited city and the seventh most popular congress city.

Transport:

Quote:
5.1 Istanbul is a major metropolis of 13.3 million people with increasing requirements for motorised trips, currently amounting to 15 million per day. The city enjoys substantial transport infrastructure and systems, comprising: Two world-class international airports, 4,200 km of multi-lane motorways and major arterials, two light rail (tram) lines (34.8 km), a 72 km suburban railway line, a high capacity 51 km Bus Rapid Transit system (Metrobüs), four metro lines (74.3 km) – two to be commissioned within 2012. The dedicated athletes and officials system will provide safe and secure ‘clean to clean’ transport services with minimal travel times and maximum comfort. Using 2011 travel times, 50% of all athlete trips are less than 15 minutes and 85% are less than 30 minutes.

Security:

Quote:
7.2, 7.4 Turkey has extensive counter-terrorism capabilities and a successful record in combating terrorist groups. The Ministry of Interior coordinates all law enforcement and intelligence agencies, utilising an extensive international information network. While separatist groups are active, they are confined primarily to the south-east border region of Turkey, and are well monitored by intelligence services. In the last five years there has been a significant increase in detection, prevention and response capability. Related legislation has been enhanced. There have been no terrorist incidents during major sport events. The Turkish Army has more than 600,000 personnel. It is anticipated the armed forces will contribute to the Games security operation through provision of specialist equipment and training (Army), air space protection (Air Force) and maritime security (Navy, working with Coast Guard and Marine Police).

Quote:
7.8 Extensive experience in providing effective security for major events. Law enforcement personnel in Turkey and Istanbul have gained considerable major event security experience during the past ten years: SEE TABLE FOR DETAILS.

Community Support:

Quote:
10.11 Community support in excess of 87% of the population. Opinion polls were conducted by Strategic Focus measuring the response of 2,418 people 15 years of age and above from Istanbul (789) and 16 other cities (1,629) providing a representative national sample. The survey was conducted from 2 to 26 January 2012. The poll confirmed the wide-ranging support of the Games in Turkey and Istanbul:

Would you like to see Turkey host the Olympic Games? 87.1% of respondents in Istanbul and 83.3% throughout Turkey supported Turkey as host of the Olympic Games (14.2% had no opinion, 2.4% opposed).

Do you believe that hosting the Olympic Games might help present a new image of Turkey to the world? 86.4% of respondents in Istanbul and 85.1% throughout Turkey believe the Games will offer a positive legacy and image for Turkey (13.4% had no opinion, 1.6% negative response).

Balanced Budget:

Quote:
11.1 A balanced OCOG budget with guaranteed underwriting and cash flow. The National Government will make a significant direct contribution to Istanbul 2020, under the provisions of the Olympic Law (#3796), to ensure a balanced budget. Turkey, a founding member of the OECD and a member of the G20, has both the political will and the economic capacity to meet all commitments. The Turkish economy is robust, with total Gross Domestic Product (GDP ) exceeding USD 734 billion in 2010, ranking Turkey 17th in the world, annual GDP growth of 9% and a stable economic outlook with the 2015 GDP forecast to exceed USD 1 trillion. Public sector debt targets are forecast to reduce from 37% of GDP in 2012 to 32% in 2014, far exceeding the 60% EU Maastricht criteria for public debt stock. Turkey’s low debt-to-GDP ratio and decreasing budget deficits (3.6% of GDP in 2010 down from 5.1% in 2009), combined with the size and sustained performance of the conomy, clearly demonstrate the financial feasibility of staging the Games in Turkey.

Source: Istanbul Olympic Bid
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billy orr



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

parnett wrote:
I knew the minute I printed my reply that I should have stated, "Unless you are Turkish" instead of "Unless you live in Turkey."


You meant to say people are entitled to their opinion unless they are Turkish??????
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