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nenna-978



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 30
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL
I thought you were the same origin as I am , coz N is written as H in cyrilics Cool
Thanks Geaaronson, I really enjoy English, especailly teaching it, but it seems that I will be stucked in here for a long time Crying or Very sad
By the way, this helps me feel more selfconfident and I'll surely try your DVD idea Wink


Last edited by nenna-978 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12751
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear nenna-978,

While the first conditional structure can (and is) used when clauses begin with time words (when, as soon as, after, before, etc..) those are not the first conditional, which is conditional precisely because it begins with "if."

"The first conditional - meaning

We use the first conditional to talk about something that will happen (the result), if (my emphasis added) a particular condition (which is likely to happen) is met. Because the manager is asking Tim to work in the stockroom, it's likely that Tim will do it and that's why we use the first conditional here."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/flatmates/episode24/languagepoint.shtml

Regards,
John
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nenna-978



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 30
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John
Haven't you noticed how persistent I am Wink
http://www.slideshare.net/davidatrome/first-conditional-12165381#btnNext
Conditional sentences are the same in every language I think
they consist of at least two clauses of which one is independant I'll call you and the other one is dependant When I arrive, so the second one When I arrive ( uncompleted sentence )depends on the first one I will call you( complited sent).
Maybe I am wrong about this, and in that case I want you to explain the mistake, observing the whole sentance. Why it can't be When I'll arrive

And who says that he/she won't call when he/she arrives, so when we talk about real posibilities we use the first conditional, and the fact that this is a task for the CELTA makes it more conditional Wink
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Augustus wrote:
Artemisia - I was under the impression that's exactly what I did, include the task with my own analysis for many of them. I couldn't do them all as I simply don't know all the answers and I have never considered some of the reasons such as why we say don't as opposed to not.

Hmm. Yes, it is hard when having to look for the first time at why we say or donít use particular language forms. And it is due the absence of explicitly taught grammar in schools after a daft educational policy was introduced (1960s?) that deemed teaching grammar unnecessary. (I donít know if that happened in all native English speaking countries). I think this is slowly changing now in some countries.

If itís any consolation, all this effort will help you very much when it comes to dealing with non native speaker students in the classroom. They face a similar struggle without the benefit of an internal Ďknowingí system, although itís surprising how quickly they can start to develop the beginnings of one. Some of them are also quite likely to ask you if a word is a verb, noun or adverb so you need to be familiar with parts of speech, and with sentence structure (how to form questions etc.)

Good luck with that, Augustus!

Quote:
Iíll give you a ring when Iíll arrive.
Correction: Iíll give you a ring when I arrive.
Explanation: This is the first conditional and the criteria for this states that it must adhere to using the future in the main clause and the present simple in the if clause.

Johnslat wrote:
(First of all, it's NOT conditional - it's a time clause, beginning with "when."I'd say only "present tense" in the TIME clause as the "present continuous / progressive can also be used:
"I'll give you a ring when I'm doing the homework tonight.")

Johnslatís explanation is correct. This is a time clause and the Present Simple (or Present Perfect) is used with time clauses.

Iíll call you when I get home.
Iíll call you if I get home [before 10pm] is an example of the First Conditional. One part of the condition depends on the other part happening; it is not a certain situation in the way Ďwhení, Ďas soon así, Ďthe minuteí etc., would describe a definite situation and the point in time at which somebody will do something [call] in the future. The 'if' clause doesn't do this.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 2730
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Augustus wrote:
I'm quite worried as to what is going to be expected of me here on a CELTA course. I willing to work hard but some of this stuff is just not obvious and very difficult to learn.

The CELTA course itself will mainly deal in examples, context, and functional explanations (i.e. not so much the what anymore, but more the why and when), with the form labels ("jargon") taking a bit of a back seat (though it will be assumed you will by then be familiar enough with the main terms).

To be honest Augustus, your explanations have been quite garbled, and too much about form and not nearly enough about function; then, the "incidental" form labels you've plumped for have sometimes been persistently incorrect (e.g. that "first conditional" - a cursory glance in that grammar glossary I've posted a link to several times would've told you that subordinate clauses beginning with 'when' are not conditionals (the keywords for that are 'if' or 'unless')), despite the errors being explicitly pointed out by at least one poster before.

It may be a bit too late now to rework your answers, but on the CELTA course you MUST take note of feedback and try to come up with effective and convincing explanations, and revealing examples along sometimes with incorrect counter-examples/"negative evidence" (e.g. that ?/*I go to the cinema every Thursday until my DVD player is fixed that I supplied on your 'Reflecting...' thread (though that example might be fine as an example of 'historic/narrative present' - a present tense used with past reference)).*

Augustus wrote:
Although the word ďnotĒ makes a verb negative, in this sentence it is being used incorrectly as in this context we need to use ďdonítĒ with all verbs apart from To Be and modal verbs and when the subject is I, you, we or they'

'Not' is a word that has to have at least an auxiliary before it, if not a main verb too following it (see also my reply to Geaaronson below). Note the regularity of the system:

I do not eat vegetables
I have not eaten vegetables for years
I will not eat any vegetables ever again
I am not eating any at the moment, I'm just chewing gum LOL

So 'do' is not the exception here. The only "exception" is *I am not eat, as you can only have one main verb (hell, tense - I am, versus I [not] eat) in a verb phrase, not two. (When 'be' is functioning, or appears to be trying to function, as the copula alone rather than a mere auxiliary, it is a main verb, hence the conflict here with 'eat', which would be another main verb, i.e. one too many. [A useful umbrella term for be, have and do is 'primary verb', to remind us that these 3 verbs can be used as either auxiliaries, or alone as main verbs]. Then, the copula only takes subject predicative complements (C, specifically PCsuperscript s - see sections 5.3, 5.5 and 5.6 here: http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/grammar/overview.html ), which are nouns~noun phrases or adjectives~adjective phrases, as "completions", i.e. to complete the intended meaning, NOT objects (O), and certainly not finite transitive verbs such as 'eat', or such verbs followed by objects, as in 'eat vegetables'). Note that 'verb of incomplete predication' is an old term for copular/linking verbs. Regarding auxiliaries generally, see sections 6.3.2 and 6.4 of the aforementioned overview of syntax.

Or here's a quote from the last chapter, 'Some misunderstood language points', of Lewis & Hill's excellent Practical Techniques:
Quote:
10. (Do) as the dummy auxiliary
This is the feature of English which is probably most misunderstood. Very often questions and negatives made with (do) (do, does, did) are treated as exceptions. In fact, English possesses totally consistent patterns and there is one rule of English which is helpful for students and teachers which occurs in far too few textbooks. It may be stated as follows:

"If a particular pattern is made using an auxiliary and you want to use that pattern with a sentence which does not contain an auxiliary [i.e. with any lexical verb - FH], you follow the usual pattern and use (do) (do, does, did) as the dummy auxiliary. The patterns are formed in exactly the same way."

The examples under 9. Auxiliaries above, show the patterns clearly.


Again, not all of the above is strictly necessary for the CELTA, and may not make much sense until a while after it (given that the CELTA doesn't involve completing a thorough course in formal grammar), but if you persevere and keep coming back to this stuff, it may~will one day help your understanding.


*And here's another one to illustrate what I was saying about the redundancy/pointlessness of repeating the same more complex tense in subordinate clauses: ?/*I'm going to the shops after I'm going to the park (cf. I'm going to the park and then I'm going to the shops - co-ordination rather than subordination) > I'm going to the park after I go to the shops. Note also John's comment about the time clause, in which we could also use Present perfect: I'll give you a ring when I've finished the homework. Anyway, the essential point is that the tense used in each of one of the clauses in these correct examples differs from the tense used in the other clause. Not that subordinate clauses can't ever share the same tense as the main e.g. when simple ongoing narrative: I knew who the killer was when I [then] found and examined the next body (cf. I found another body, examined it, and immediately knew who the killer was, and I knew who the killer was once I'd found and examined the next body/after examining the next body; etc? LOL)).


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:42 pm; edited 6 times in total
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12751
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear nenna-978,

In a first conditional (future possible) sentence, the dependent clause has to begin with "if," "unless," "in case," etc. since the information in that clause sets forth the "condition" that may or may not take place in order for the action in the main sentence to happen.


"Conditions deal with imagined situations: some are possible, some are unlikely, some are impossible. The speaker/writer imagines that something can or cannot happen or have happened, and then compares that situation with possible consequences or outcomes, or offers further logical conclusions about the situation."
(R. Carter, Cambridge Grammar of English. Cambridge Univ. Press, 2006)

There are six main types of conditional sentence:
For example, the equilibrium between liquid and vapor is upset if the temperature is increased.
(General rule, or law of nature: it always happens.)

If you start thinking about this game, it will drive you crazy.
(Open future condition: it may or may not happen.)

But if you really wanted to be on Malibu Beach, you'd be there.
(Unlikely future condition: it probably won't happen.)

If I were you, I would go to the conference center itself and ask to see someone in security.
(Impossible future condition: it could never happen.)

"I would have resigned if they had made the decision themselves," she said.
(Impossible past condition: it didn't happen.)

If he had been working for three days and three nights then it was in the suit he was wearing now.
(Unknown past condition: we don't know the facts.)"
(John Seely, Grammar for Teachers. Oxpecker, 2007)


Regards,
John
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 2730
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or look at it this way, Nenna: after saying "I'll call you when I arrive", my arrival might get delayed but I'll still be able to call you, but saying "I'll call you if I arrive", I might as well have substituted the word 'survive' for 'arrive' LOL.

That is, conditionals are much more "contingent", dependent on (the) stated conditions, whereas the clause with 'when' will likely happen almost automatically and without undue difficulty, i.e. it is assumed there will be no problems, so no conditions (or they are not perceived as such by the speaker) are stated.

Yes, such is the power of that little word 'if'. From which we get iff.
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geaaronson



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
'Not' is a word that comes between the subject and auxiliary in statements. (In negative questions relying on inversion, the order is aux, subject, not, but the following regularities are also observed regardless). Note the regularity of the system:

I do not eat vegetables
I have not eaten vegetables for years
I will not eat any vegetables ever again
I am not eating any at the moment, I'm just chewing gum LOL
FLUFFYMONSTER

your first line should read "not" is a word that comes between the auxiliary verb and principal verb.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 2730
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, thanks for the correction, Geaaronson! I'm tiring a bit if silly errors like that are starting to creep in LOL. I'll go back and correct it in a sec.

TBH I found it difficult to work out why Augustus was having problems with this:
Augustus wrote:
I'm finding it very challenging to think about why we use don't compared to not in certain sentences.


I mean, 'not' by itself wouldn't be capable of negating much other than a following participle or two, and even then would be quite fragmentary (?Not eating, ?Not eaten, ?Not been eaten, ?Not being eaten, *Not eat, *Not ate). There really needs to be at least an auxiliary (in an ellipted reply, versus an auxiliary plus main verb in a fuller, unellipted sentence) to negate:

No, I'm not (a banana/dancing/beaten)
No (I haven't (eaten yet))
I don't know about that
I'm not going to the party
I didn't go after all
I couldn't care less
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Augustus



Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't received any notification regarding these posts so have only just come upon them ....

I will go through the entire thread and make note of everything .... I am struggling a lot to get to grips with a lot of this stuff and I am going to have to grab the bull by the horns as I will be way out of my depth if I get on this course.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12751
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Augustus,

You don't receive "notifications" regarding posts - you have to just return every so often and check the thread(s).

Regards,
John
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Augustus



Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did for quite sometime ....

Got emails every time someone replied to my thread.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 2730
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there I was thinking you were hanging on every word, Augustus! Evil or Very Mad / Twisted Evil , Laughing Wink But seriously, do try to check back to threads while the topics are still reasonably fresh in your mind (on the other hand, of course don't overdo it, and take a break every now and then).

John, immediately below each reply box you type in, and above the Preview and Submit buttons, are 3 boxes, the 3rd of which is 'Notify me when a reply is posted'. I guess that's what Aug was talking about. I've never ticked that box, cos I check by the forums often enough and don't want my email Inbox getting any more mail than is strictly necessary (plus one can always do a search for oneself as author to see which of especially one's older threads might have garnered replies since one's last visit). Perhaps it wasn't quite functioning the last time Aug ticked it, or she forgot to do so.
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Augustus



Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

Went to an open evening last night and it was very busy and we were told that there are very few places available. I felt that very few of the people had done much (or any) research - many seemed to be there simply for the chance to go to certain male orientated countries and work for amazing money.

Hence I've edited all my posts to as this cafe was mentioned and I dont want to give my answers away to someone who hasn't done the work.

Augustus
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santi84



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 854
Location: under da sea

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Augustus,

I did not formally learn English grammar in elementary/secondary school. One trick that helped me when I started my degree (TESL was my concentration) was to actually take out some basic ESL learner books (like Betty Azar) and do them myself. Sometimes getting right down to the basics is a good place to start. I have dozens of TESL books (some are very complex and meant for teachers with elaborate knowledge of English grammar) but even ESL books can be useful.
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