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Positive things about Vietnam
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TDT



Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are not many positives about VN at the moment, except you become an instant millionaire once you set foot in the country. Many of us are even billionaires.
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isabel



Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 490
Location: God's green earth

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Vietnam. I have a lovely place to live where I garden and raise orchids. Food here is splendid, and cheap. Most people are nice, and often humorous, if at times disingenuous.

Mostly I love the freedom here. I know that's odd, as there is not the kind of freedom that we value in the west (try blogging some criticism of the government, for example). But I love the freedom from the western constraints that, ironically I actually support at home. There is a kind of wild west feel that is exhilarating, but it is only a temporary condition on the road to development.

Because of that, I don't find myself nearly as critical of the inconveniences and incongruities that many westerners rail against. If I wanted the fully sanitized, safe and regulated version of development, I wouldn't be here.
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Oh My God



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isabel wrote:
Mostly I love the freedom here. I know that's odd, as there is not the kind of freedom that we value in the west (try blogging some criticism of the government, for example). But I love the freedom from the western constraints that, ironically I actually support at home. There is a kind of wild west feel that is exhilarating, but it is only a temporary condition on the road to development.


Now you're starting to see this place as home, admit it, that is a nice feeling! To us old timers, there's a feeling of belonging and friendly relationships that most likely will be a lifetime. Of course, I have family here also with in-laws.

This is our home, no I'm not VN or VK. But America isn't so wonderful anymore either. VN has it's good and bad just like the USA only different. Once you've learned the language, social customs, moralities, and good VN manners - this place just really opens up to you. Now that IS a MAJOR transition but well worth it.

I still teach but mainly now, I have my own VN registered business so the Work Permit and Visa runs are unnecessary. But even before that, having VN friends in high places lowered my susceptibility to what most were going through. "When in Rome,..."?
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Off the beaten path

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.
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VietCanada



Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurtz wrote:
^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.


How are these bahaviours different from white peoples ? I've seen people picking their noses and yelling on cell phones. I've seen people pee in public too. People will do whatever other people let them do.
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isabel



Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 490
Location: God's green earth

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurtz wrote:
^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.


"Morality" is relative. Students have a hard time understanding that they aren't to "help" their friends with their work. What we see as nosy and intrusive is seen here as inclusive. Tell me why "picking your nose" (or squeezing your zits) is particularly rude. It is human. I don't like it because I was taught that it was rude. People live here in very close contact and what we see as "private" behavior is a luxury most here cannot afford. Life is a very public event. Yelling here is a given. I don't like it. I really really don't like it. But it is what people do here. It is also what people do in some parts of the U.S..

Being an expat should mean being able to adapt to your new surroundings. Else-wise you should stay home where you are in your comfort zone.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Off the beaten path

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isabel wrote:
kurtz wrote:
^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.


"Morality" is relative. Students have a hard time understanding that they aren't to "help" their friends with their work. What we see as nosy and intrusive is seen here as inclusive. Tell me why "picking your nose" (or squeezing your zits) is particularly rude. It is human. I don't like it because I was taught that it was rude. People live here in very close contact and what we see as "private" behavior is a luxury most here cannot afford. Life is a very public event. Yelling here is a given. I don't like it. I really really don't like it. But it is what people do here. It is also what people do in some parts of the U.S..

Being an expat should mean being able to adapt to your new surroundings. Else-wise you should stay home where you are in your comfort zone.


This could turn into a deep and philosophical debate, but I'd rather not.

What's more concerning is their total lack of empathy for strangers.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Off the beaten path

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VietCanada wrote:
kurtz wrote:
^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.


How are these bahaviours different from white peoples ? I've seen people picking their noses and yelling on cell phones. I've seen people pee in public too. People will do whatever other people let them do.


Let's say white people generally don't leave people half dead on the street after an accident, or laugh when they see someone in real pain. Basic human empathy and concern for people who aren't in their family is lacking here. I accept this is how it is but I don't see this being a positive in Vietnam.
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isabel



Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 490
Location: God's green earth

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurtz wrote:
VietCanada wrote:
kurtz wrote:
^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.


How are these bahaviours different from white peoples ? I've seen people picking their noses and yelling on cell phones. I've seen people pee in public too. People will do whatever other people let them do.


Let's say white people generally don't leave people half dead on the street after an accident, or laugh when they see someone in real pain. Basic human empathy and concern for people who aren't in their family is lacking here. I accept this is how it is but I don't see this being a positive in Vietnam.


Broad sweeping generalizations about both "white people" and Vietnamese. I can say that I have seen a serious lack of "basic human empathy" for some people's own families in the States. In fact, there are a lot in the US who see empathy as an impediment to progress (Tea Parties and a lot of Republicans, for example). And don't tell me how empathetic the Tories are. Give me a break.

Bottom line, as is the case with people most everywhere who don't like the country they live in- you are free, and encouraged, to leave any time you want.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Off the beaten path

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isabel wrote:
kurtz wrote:
VietCanada wrote:
kurtz wrote:
^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.


How are these bahaviours different from white peoples ? I've seen people picking their noses and yelling on cell phones. I've seen people pee in public too. People will do whatever other people let them do.


Let's say white people generally don't leave people half dead on the street after an accident, or laugh when they see someone in real pain. Basic human empathy and concern for people who aren't in their family is lacking here. I accept this is how it is but I don't see this being a positive in Vietnam.


Broad sweeping generalizations about both "white people" and Vietnamese. I can say that I have seen a serious lack of "basic human empathy" for some people's own families in the States. In fact, there are a lot in the US who see empathy as an impediment to progress (Tea Parties and a lot of Republicans, for example). And don't tell me how empathetic the Tories are. Give me a break.

Bottom line, as is the case with people most everywhere who don't like the country they live in- you are free, and encouraged, to leave any time you want.


Spoken like a true apologist. I do for the most part like living here, but I'm not alone in thinking that Vietnamese morals are not a positive. From stealing from your family, to selling your children, to rampant thievery, wedding scams, saying absolutely horrible things in front of your face as they think you don't understand them and leaving people for dead on the streets are hardly positives. That's from my observations and I'd like to hear from OhMyGod what they meant about the moralities and how things open up to you once you understand them. I have spoken to a couple of long-termers who see the people as amoral; funny how our perceptions can differ, isn't it?

I've seen this before. Long-term expats who have made the attempt to go native, made it their home, and are subsequently very easily offended by anything slightly negative toward their adopted homeland as it might place some doubts to whether that was a good decision and if they do in fact like living there. They scream go home if you don't like it but mostly we do like it, but no place is perfect.
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isabel



Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 490
Location: God's green earth

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not all that long term- and certainly not going native. In fact- I know dreadfully few words of the language and live in an expat ghetto. I count no Vietnamese amongst my real friends (I have some nice acquaintances, though) and this is probably because I don't know the language.

It is a part of the human condition to create a system of "morality". That system can be a mystery to outsiders, at best, and often an affront to everything we believe. But "believe" is the key word. It is good to try to remember that your morality is another's affront. I am sure that is just too anthropological and relativistic for you. Because you probably don't believe in anthropological understandings and relativism.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Off the beaten path

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said before, I'm not interested in philosophical debates on Dave's, I hope OMG comes back and explains what he means though purely out of interest.

I had a lovely bun cha today, that was a big positive for today.
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toiyeuthitmeo



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 211

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just had to chime in, here...

In the USA's biggest city, dozens of people spent over 20 seconds snapping photos of a man who had been pushed on to the subway tracks, rather than helping him out. The man was killed.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/06/new-york-post-subway-photo-ethics/1749681/

There are sh*tty people every where.

Note that in Vietnam, if you attempt to help a person in distress, especially as a foreigner, you will often be expected to pay for any resulting treatment, and may even be blamed by the victim or bystanders for causing the situation in the first place, because they assume you have the money to help.

One thing that gets me, though, is men abusing women rather publicly. More than a few Vietnamese have told me that it is unacceptable for any non-family member to intervene in such situations, especially a foreigner. That's one thing I'll never abide by-- if I see that happening, I'm getting involved.
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isabel



Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 490
Location: God's green earth

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about abuse- I've seen it in all countries, though. In the last few decades it has become intolerable in most of the west- though I have seen a few parents in the US whom I wouldn't mind putting out of their children's misery.

It seems still to be tolerated in the Middle East and Asia. And there are organizations within the Middle East and Asia which are fighting against it. I support these people, mostly women, in this. We westerners, however, cannot reform other countries, and ought not try. You know, stones and glass houses, etc.
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Oh My God



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurtz wrote:
^

Please explain these Vietnamese "moralities". Would you describe Vietnamese morals as a positive? And what are these manners? Picking your nose? Pissing in public? Yelling on your iphone in public? I do see some folks covering their mouth when on the phone but the majority just seem to yell.


You know, for Expats that could make a good BOOK!

But since I'm not the Author type I will only point in the right direction and let you go discover, just like I did. C'mon you guys, Seriously?! Explain VN Moralities?!

I would say start with Social Customs because when they first meet you, you won't be expected to know the VN Manners. Here is when you begin learning rudimentary VN language AND get introduced to VN Manners.

WARNING! The VN think that's it's an insult to you to be totally expletive of these things as then you'd be considered slow witted (stupid)! Sooo, be careful of your reply as you wouldn't want to make them "loose face" at least NEVER IN PUBLIC

so basically, you're expected to figure things out as you go AND as they get to know you, you'll be expected to do the same!

We could almost write a book about "Loosing Face"

Next after beginning meaningful relationships, privately inquire about VN Moralities from THOSE friends, if their hearts are open to you they will try to explain things in more detail as it's a complement to ask a close friend to bring you to a closer understanding of the VN people they both love and hate!

Yeah, I'm married and have a little daughter about 6 years old BUT I don't need to console myself for making the right decision for me and mine. I'm Very Adaptable and I'm older than 75 - 80% of you guys so I've become observant of my life and the world around me, try it - you might like it!

Yeah, I definitely can understand how this place can aggravate the $h!t out of you BUT part of my Karma is to choose happiness - It's contagious!
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