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USF official quits over China students
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5h09un



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wonderingjoesmith wrote:
Funny how we care about where the money comes from when foreigners are transferring their assests or investing in varieties of fields but how we slack off when our educational institutions (and the powers) close their eyes over overseas students and their families


the issue here isn't the source of the money. it's the fact that recruitment has become so aggressive that it's become unscrupulous. it's ridiculous that USF admitted students who are clearly unprepared to digest their curriculum due to their low english levels. and this isn't an isolated case. i work at a school that prepares students to leave china and study abroad for high school, university and graduate school and i think most of them will be fine. but now and then i come across the odd student who can hardly greet me and i learn that they're slated to go to the US or the UK or AUS in a month or two and i wonder why it seems like nobody has told them that they simply aren't ready. that they'll fall flat on their faces there. places like the university of delaware and the university of california have adapted to these challenges, but i can't help but believe that there are things going on in the west that are completely ripping chinese people off just like for-profit colleges in the US.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5h09un wrote:
" . . . but now and then i come across the odd student who can hardly greet me and i learn that they're slated to go to the US or the UK or AUS in a month or two and i wonder why it seems like nobody has told them that they simply aren't ready. that they'll fall flat on their faces there. places like the university of delaware and the university of california have adapted to these challenges, but i can't help but believe that there are things going on in the west that are completely ripping chinese people off just like for-profit colleges in the US.


But most Chinese student don't "fall flat on their faces" when they get to the UK or the US or Australia? And why? Because the universities in these countries, many who work with for-profit companies like BP and INTO University Partnerships, make special allowances for these students. And what are these allowances? Well, the arguments are now commonplace, but let me reiterate here:

1. Post-grad courses are dumbed down;
2. Proficiency tests like IELTS are avoided in favour of in-house presessional English courses/tests where Pass marks are sometimes as low as 40%;
3. International students and local students may be segregated to avoid problems. In this system the host university can relax the standards of the foreign students while holding local students to higher standards. It's basically a divide and conquer scheme . . and for the domestic students it flies under the radar.

The bottom line is that western universities are strapped for cash and they'll do anything they can to get hold of all that delicious cash that international students bring in. I wonder how much longer this scam can go on before the whole thing implodes . . . ?
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thatsforsure



Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only are grading standards lowered, but ethical standards are, too. Many of these students cheat like crazy all the way through their programs. I have been around some of them in the U.S. and seen test answer sheets being passed around and various other forms of cheating and plagiarism. I have known of students being kicked out, but only rarely, and generally from expensive private schools where the finances are not bad. At public universities, especially mid-tier and lower, forget it. Nobody is going to rock the apple cart. The instructors and professors will only press the issue if they feel they have the support of admin -- not likely, because admin want to keep the tuition, and their own high salaries, flowing.

The issue will continue for a long, long time. It will not ever be an issue that gets the attention of donors, lawmakers or employers. The reason is that the students go home after graduation. They don't land in the U.S. workforce. The attitude is, so what if they graduate with no English skills whatsoever? Not a U.S. problem.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thatsforsure wrote:
The issue will continue for a long, long time. It will not ever be an issue that gets the attention of donors, lawmakers or employers. The reason is that the students go home after graduation. They don't land in the U.S. workforce. The attitude is, so what if they graduate with no English skills whatsoever? Not a U.S. problem.


That's the conventional wisdom but the truth is that many Chinese do overstay their visa and work illegally. Sometimes they get legitimate jobs from local employers who may prefer to hire them because they are cheap, work hard and never kick up a fuss. This of course puts a strain on the local job market and forces less well-educated locals to enroll at the for-profits to make themselves more competitive vis a vis the internationals who've just graduated. You'd think that someone would put a stop to all this scandal, but the for-profits like Apollo spend millions hiring lobbyists to lobby politicians in Congress not to change the status quo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/30/for-profit-colleges-lobbying_n_1842507.html

Of course the situation is aggravated by the fact that there are no jobs in China. Again the diploma mills around the world are churning out too many degree holders and there simply isn't enough jobs to go around. Take a look at these depressing pics:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239793/Tens-thousands-Chinese-graduates-flood-jobs-fair-fears-grow-unemployment.html

Poor students today are being duped into buying a product(Education) that has no value in the market place. Surely they're due a massive refund . . . and an apology?
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thatsforsure



Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's the conventional wisdom but the truth is that many Chinese do overstay their visa and work illegally. Sometimes they get legitimate jobs from local employers who may prefer to hire them because they are cheap, work hard and never kick up a fuss. This of course puts a strain on the local job market and forces less well-educated locals to enroll at the for-profits to make themselves more competitive vis a vis the internationals who've just graduated.
Let me clarify that I am talking specifically about undergraduate students. These students come from well-to-do families and they pay full tuition, or very close to it. (Sometimes a nominal scholarship is awarded, more as a sales tool than anything, in my opinion.) These students almost always major in business, or occasionally in accounting. They rarely stay on in the U.S. after graduation, because it's very hard for U.S. employers to make a case that they can't find any U.S.-born bachelor's level business management grads to hire. Because of family wealth, they don't need to stay on illegally and work odd jobs. When they arrive back in China, jobs are not a problem, as they can work in the family business. The Western degree is just a face-gaining tool, a certificate for the wall.

What you said is far more true for graduate students, who are a different ball of wax entirely. The categories are starting to be less distinct, however, as some of the bachelor's grads are staying on for grad school.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thatsforsure wrote:
Let me clarify that I am talking specifically about undergraduate students. These students come from well-to-do families and they pay full tuition, or very close to it. (Sometimes a nominal scholarship is awarded, more as a sales tool than anything, in my opinion.) These students almost always major in business, or occasionally in accounting. They rarely stay on in the U.S. after graduation, because it's very hard for U.S. employers to make a case that they can't find any U.S.-born bachelor's level business management grads to hire. Because of family wealth, they don't need to stay on illegally and work odd jobs. When they arrive back in China, jobs are not a problem, as they can work in the family business. The Western degree is just a face-gaining tool, a certificate for the wall.

What you said is far more true for graduate students, who are a different ball of wax entirely. The categories are starting to be less distinct, however, as some of the bachelor's grads are staying on for grad school.


It's interesting how you divide Chinese students into undergrads and (post) graduate students. I think employment is going to be more of an issue for graduate students than it is for undergrads for the simple fact that many undergrads go on and study at grad school as you note. This of course would be the wish of Chinese parents, who believe that more education is better. However, what is unclear at this stage is how many Chinese students overstay their visas. I teach graduate students in the UK and many of them are Chinese from "well-to-do" families. Most of these students want to stay on in the UK, but because of new visa restrictions cannot. It's not just about getting a job, but also about having the freedom to come and go as they like. Chinese students find this new found freedom a breath of fresh air.

It was reported recently that 150,000 migrants overstayed their visa in the UK. This probably includes many international students who use the student visa as a backdoor into the country. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of these migrants, but unfortunately news today is all about big headlines and rarely gets to the heart of the matter.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168962/Border-shambles-lets-150-000-migrants-overstay-visas-officials-idea-living-illegally.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2191628/New-database-launched-track-150-000-illegal-immigrants-Britain.html

http://www.immigrationmatters.co.uk/illegal-working-raids-in-londons-chinatown-fourteen-arrested.html
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5h09un wrote:
wonderingjoesmith wrote:
Funny how we care about where the money comes from when foreigners are transferring their assests or investing in varieties of fields but how we slack off when our educational institutions (and the powers) close their eyes over overseas students and their families


the issue here isn't the source of the money. it's the fact that recruitment has become so aggressive that it's become unscrupulous. it's ridiculous that USF admitted students who are clearly unprepared to digest their curriculum due to their low english levels. and this isn't an isolated case. i work at a school that prepares students to leave china and study abroad for high school, university and graduate school and i think most of them will be fine. but now and then i come across the odd student who can hardly greet me and i learn that they're slated to go to the US or the UK or AUS in a month or two and i wonder why it seems like nobody has told them that they simply aren't ready. that they'll fall flat on their faces there. places like the university of delaware and the university of california have adapted to these challenges, but i can't help but believe that there are things going on in the west that are completely ripping chinese people off just like for-profit colleges in the US.
Ask your students what their parents do. The students' replies may incoherently suggest their parents are business people although they often come short of explaining the businesses. Should I believe that language is the barrier?

In States, the money that's spent through education is welcome. It creates jobs and apparently the unemployment rate is lower in the areas where universities are. I've recently read an article about Iowa's 2%unemployment rate. Guess who's contributed to the job opportunities there.

So, I beg to differ on the topic of money which is, in my view, the issue. Do you want to be paid by dirty gangsters at home? On one hand, we condemn corruption, but on the other we selfishly approve it.
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