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A contract for recruiters??
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chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Given that subject of OP doesn't have a lot to bring to the table, she is more liable than most to be ripped off.


What? Recruiters treat teachers relative to some red-herring package they would bring to the table? Where do you get this logic?

The offer is the offer is the offer, is the offer.

You like to hide the points you are making. You said "doesn't have a lot to bring".

Do you mean her ethnicity? So, if what you said was correct, then how does getting a contact number of a native English speaker help this Hungarian woman who would, by your formula, not mine, be treated differently?

I simply don't see merit in your argument here and I disagree with your assertion.

Quote:
My advice to HER is to protect as much as possible by seeking contact details of previous teachers who have worked at named school or at very least been placed in a position by that recruiter.


Then, we are in agreement with getting contact info, but what I disagree with is that the recruiter is the responsible one to have this contact list of previous teachers their clients hired in the past.

One big reason is that the recruiter doesn't always recruit for the same school, so why hold on to contact info of teachers if recruiter 2 is the one who gets the teacher to sign the contract?

You should talk with the school directly. If they are an honest school, they will give the contact info. There is no need to be secretive about it.

Or, am I realizing this is theirs and your tactic, to be secretive and not upfront about information.

What is so wrong about asking, "SCHOOL, Can I have your previous teacher's contact info?"

Why does it have to be a capture the flag moment where you steal the contact info without the school knowing it? Ask upfront, "I want the contact info" when you visit or talk with the school.

There is no harm in that.

When I looked for my first job in Shanghai, I trusted my recruiter too much and I didn't do the very thing I am advising. I got to the school and I found out the school (and surprisingly the teachers) were happy with a completely different idiotic way of doing things. So, I left after 3 weeks, and within 12 hours of leaving visited another school with teachers who had a completely different viewpoint and agreed with the way I felt a school should be run.

NO RECRUITERS INVOLVED.

Moral of the story Mory:

1. Talk with the school.
2. Visit the school.
3. Ask questions to the school not recruiter.
4. A recruiter is just a matchmaker and they do not hold your hand through the process, you must learn to get along with the school you are being matched with or face the consequences. If you want it to be a blind date after you arrive, don't come back here and post how bad the honeymoon experience was because YOU have been warned.

Yes, by me.

You don't like all the 'me' and 'I' references?

I can speak for you too and say "we", but by the lack of sound arguments you are making I don't think we are in agreement. That's why I say "I" and "me".

I am speaking for myself. I hope you are speaking for yourself and no one has a gun to your head. If so, the situation is worse than expected corporal.

Quote:
It's the nearest thing FTs have to an employer blacklist and maybe we'll see the day when Chinese employers realise that a good reputation is to be prized.


Ok, now I think I see your M.O. here. It ain't ever gonna happen. You might have been an honorable trustworthy recruiter, I am not here to debate that. However, there are plenty of dishonest and untrustworthy recruiters out there who will just get a native English teacher to pretend they were a previous teacher just to get a signature if that's all it takes.

It's best to talk with the school. Ask them questions. Wait a week, ask the same questions. See if the story changes. See if the school is taking measures to help the working relationship during the time before you arrive at the school.

This is a better indicator of your working year in a foreign country, not just the 1 week of emailing a recruiter before get you to sign a contract.

I have never spoken with previous recruiters after getting hired, but I sure keep in touch with the good schools I have taught at. So, if the school wants a reference from me I am more than happy to go through them, not the recruiter.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2520
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In most Western countries the relationship between recruiter and employer is that of Agent and Principal. The law is pretty standard jurisdiction to jurisdiction as most stems from English Common Law.
A question asked of the recruiter by the prospective hire, is the same as if it had been asked directly of the employer.
A properly briefed and professional recruiter would likely obtain or be given, the basic information at the outset and be able to pass it on to any applicant who asked for it.
Having the various applicants contacting the school and individually asking the same old questions raises the query 'Why have a recruiter?'
This brings us back to the OP and my (and others) conclusion that (a) their is no relationship between the recruiter and any school and (b) that any work that is undertaken would likely be illegal as the school does not have the right to hire foreigners.
This woman has neither degree, ESL qual or native speaker status to 'bring to the table'. This is a common expression in negotiating situations.
She is particularly vulnerable and should not proceed with recruiters who cannot answer basic questions.
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chinatimes wrote:
The offer is the offer is the offer, is the offer.


this is indeed true.....up until the point where you make a counter-offer.

chinatimes wrote:
....You said "doesn't have a lot to bring"...


in this case, as OP has nothing to offer [requirements- and qualifications-wise,
nothing of value to bring to the negotiating table], then the offer will truly be
the offer....up until the point where she arrives on a tourist visa with no
emergency funds and is forced to accept whatever crap assignment the
recruiter can come up with.
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chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
She is particularly vulnerable and should not proceed with recruiters who cannot answer basic questions.


Contact information is not a basic question.

The recruiter deals with the process of getting a job. I would never talk to a future teacher if I knew a shark recruiter had my contact info.

I would change my contact info IMMEDIATELY.

I would give said changes to the school.

Now where does your basic questions stance go? Straight down the quicksand sewer, mate!!!

It is the good schools I hold allegiance too, not the recruiters.
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

contact info is a basic question.

in other lands, the recruiter will have an exclusive contract with the
employer, so is able to give out the school's info without fear of losing
a contract. said recruiter will often have contact info for previous or
current employees, or will be able to provide it if requested.

this is not other lands. this is china. recruiters here rarely have any
relation to the employer. they scour the want ads, cutting & pasting
into their own websites, after having deleted identifying information.
prospective employees often will not know the name of the school
they will be working at until after they have signed a contract. said
contract will often be between recruiter and employee, rather than
between school and employee.

'teachers' with no qualifications, unable to meet the minimum requirements
for legal employment, must rely on recruiters.
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chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
contact info is a basic question.


Ok, get my contact info then. I dare you. As soon as your "source" contacts me, my screen names, my aliases, will be gone.

Challenge on. What is my screen name I use now? It has a "t" it in it.

Quote:
the recruiter will have an exclusive contract with the
employer, so is able to give out the school's info


The teacher is not the "school's info".

Time for remedial reading.
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chinatimes wrote:
The teacher is not the "school's info".

Time for remedial reading.


here ya go....remedial 101:

choudoufu wrote:
.......so is able to give out the school's info without fear of losing a contract. ....said recruiter will often have contact info for previous or current employees, or will be able to provide it if requested.


your task is to read, and comprehend, the above short passage. then you are to tell me (in tiny words) whether this implies that school info = teacher info. if so, you should explain what you have been smoking, and perhaps tell me where to get some, too.
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chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
then you are to tell me (in tiny words) whether this implies that school info = teacher info.


School's have the teacher's info, not the recruiter.

That's the tiniest I could make it, hope it is satisfactory. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

To choudoufu and Non Sequitur,

If you think the recruiter is going to carry around a little notebook (and update it) with phone numbers and email addresses of previous teachers who worked at their clients' schools, you are crazy.

(you should explain what you have been smoking, and perhaps tell me where to get some, too.) LOL, I like that one.

Lots of luck trying though.
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General Disarray



Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 35
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THanks for the feedback, the fact that it has created a dicussion like this says enough.

Another point I missed out, she'll only be going for 5 months due to her University course (Chinese and American studies) starting again in September (first half of this year was Erasmus hence the break now).

I don't think many recruiters (decent ones) would be willing to pay for the whole airfare for someone for 5 months.

I haven't said yes or no to her, but because she is only 22 I have told her to wait, there is no rush and to go next year when she is fully qualified (as much as she can be). I wanted her to know the facts from people who live there and are doing what she wants to do, we all know how we can ignore things that we shouldn't because we want something so much!!!!

Especially since she wants to live in China in the future, it would be foolish for her to be risked being banned from the country for life for something she isn't 100% on.

Thanks for the feedback Smile, much appreciated, always good to get information from people who have been through the process.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

General Disarray wrote:


Another point I missed out, she'll only be going for 5 months due to her University course (Chinese and American studies) starting again in September (first half of this year was Erasmus hence the break now).



She's probably better off not going to work, but to volunteer / study Chinese / travel.

Of course, that is likely to cost more, but with so much against her in terms of legal requirements its probably a safer bet and could turn out cheaper than going illegally and having problems.

Lots of schools offer volunteer programs in where I work, with food and board given in return for a few hours a week English Corner - 1 to 1 activities. There is no fee involved, but she would be responsible for travel costs and other spends. Might be an idea to float to her?
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2520
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This further info makes her task that much harder - if that were possible..
I go along with the volunteer idea or if she wants to do just July and August, a summer programme.
These are paid but all up they would just cover costs.
Still, a summer gig would give her the chance to make some contacts and decide if China is for her - post-graduation.
I still like my foreign language U idea, as going head to head in the native speaking English market will always be a big ask for her.
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