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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: Grammar question |
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Just a quick question: do the following sentences sound right to you?
'I was nervous to tell my family.'
'I am excited to go to Rome next week.'
'I am sad to do this to you.'
I have to admit that they do not seem quite right to me, though I cannot pinpoint which rule of grammar they offend. I just want there to be prepositions or adverbs followed by an ~ing form. However, I think these may be just dependent on the specific adjective used. 'I delighted/happy/pleased to tell you' sounds fine.
Seem to be used more predominantly by North American speakers, if that matters.
What do other posters have to say. Please feel free to speak! |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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I am reluctant
I am hesitant
....to try to address this.
Some adjectives can be followed by to (do) and some cannot.
Dunno the rule, either.
But all of your model sentences sound wrong to me. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
Were you to put a "too" in front of the adjectives in sentences 1 and 3, and a "very" in front of the adjective in sentence 2, they'd all sound fine.
Actually, I'd probably say/write sentence 2 this way:
I'm excited about going to Rome next week,
Regards,
John |
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Qaaolchoura
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 539 Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Sasha, the first one sounds fine (maybe because it's in the past tense?), the second one sounds slightly off (I'd rather say "I'm excited about going.." [edit]Just noticed john said this too[/edit]), the third one sounds wrong. I agree with johnslat that "very" and "too" make the second and third sound better.
Like John, I'm a native speaker of North American English.
I also can't point to a clear grammatical rule, and I'd probably just blame it on pragmatics and move on. Unless they're really high-level, they've got bigger things to worry about.
~Q |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
Sentences 1 and 3 deal with "problem," and so the added "too" would help, I think.
But as you wrote sentence 1, if "to tell" is changed to "about telling," it would sound better to me.
Same with sentence 3 - "I'm sad about doing this to you" would sound better.
I'm revising my previous statement since "too sad" would change the meaning. It would mean that you weren't going to do it because you were too sad.
Regards,
John
Last edited by johnslat on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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'I was nervous to tell my family.'
"I was too nervous to tell my family."
'I am excited to go to Rome next week.'
"I am excited about going to Rome next week."
'I am sad to do this to you.'
"I am sorry to do this to you." (The use of sad seems odd because the sadness is most likely due to reluctance or regret.) |
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artemisia
Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I�m not sure about hard and fast rules � perhaps this is more about patterns? The adjective itself seems to determine whether it can be followed by an infinitive. However, some infinitives seem more acceptable than others. Perhaps this has something to do with an active/passive sense of meaning within the sentence, but it still depends on the adjective. Some forms seem more appropriate than others according to tense and/ or the meaning of the infinitive and adjective.
�I am sad to do this to you�. (Sounds odd. As noted above, "sorry" would fit here. It sounds like it's a more active feeling.)
�I�m happy to do this for you�. (Sounds okay)
�I was sad to hear he�d lost his job�. (Sounds okay)
�We were sad to come to the end of our journey�.
�I was excited to see my friend arrive�. �I am excited about seeing my friend again�.
�I felt nervous to hear/to find out/ to discover (that) I would have to give a speech� (??)
�I was anxious to tell them my news�. (keen) �I was anxious about telling them my news�. (worried)
http://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/verbs/infinitive |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:51 am Post subject: |
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johnslat wrote: |
Dear Sasha,
Sentences 1 and 3 deal with "problem," and so the added "too" would help, I think.
But as you wrote sentence 1, if "to tell" is changed to "about telling," it would sound better to me.
Same with sentence 3 - "I'm sad about doing this to you" would sound better.
I'm revising my previous statement since "too sad" would change the meaning. It would mean that you weren't going to do it because you were too sad.
Regards,
John |
Dear Johnslat
All good points. There is also the effect of the modifier 'enough' to think about.
'I was nervous enough to need to take a valium or two."
Though again, I think we will agree there is a change in meaning there.
Regards
Sasha |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Dear Artemisia
I am inclined to agree that this is a case of different words conforming to different lexical patterns. But there can sometimes be an underlying principle that groups adjectives together. For example, necessary, silly, risky, essential, dangerous - these all connote the meaning of wise or foolish, and all have a similar pattern grammar, in this case, being followed by an infinitive. (I got these from Dave Willis' book, Rules, Patterns and Words.)
But for the examples in the opening post, I really cannot see any underlying principle or similar group that connects the adjectives or justifies the use of the infinitive. I suspect, and this may be an ungrounded assumption based on nothing more than my limited experience, that this is a feature of language that is changing before our very eyes (and ears). I can't recall anyone ten years ago saying 'I am excited to go on holidays next week'. Maybe I just never noticed it, but my intuition suggests that this is a fairly recent trend, coming from the US. As in this clip from the BBC. Skip to time 02:40 to hear the example.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21190626
Anybody else believe that this is a new trend in English? |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010 Posts: 3258
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:30 am Post subject: |
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I can't really see any "rules" that are broken by those sentences, Sash, that's just one of those things about English. They SOUND weird; sluggish, unwieldy,....... |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 11061 Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Now Johntpartee, that's not the attitude at al. It's not enough to just say it's one of those things. We have to get to the bottom of it, grrr! |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010 Posts: 3258
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Oh, man, you mean we gotta think? That's too much like work! |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 1475 Location: KSA
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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Sashadroogie wrote: |
Just a quick question: do the following sentences sound right to you?
'I was nervous to tell my family.'
'I am excited to go to Rome next week.'
'I am sad to do this to you.'
I have to admit that they do not seem quite right to me, though I cannot pinpoint which rule of grammar they offend. I just want there to be prepositions or adverbs followed by an ~ing form. However, I think these may be just dependent on the specific adjective used. 'I delighted/happy/pleased to tell you' sounds fine.
Seem to be used more predominantly by North American speakers, if that matters.
What do other posters have to say. Please feel free to speak! |
As others have pointed out the use of the infinitive has many various subtle patterns which requires knowlege of specific combinations of words that are suitable for each pattern / formula. Such as 'too'/ 'enough' as one example...
Most native speakers that have some basic grasp of grammar let alone experts...most instinctively know what works, but would not be able to explain the 'why' because there are so many friggin patterns...too many subtle variations of word patterns involved to remember them all.
'I was nervous to tell my family.'
This sentence feels incomplete...tell my family what?
I was nervous to tell my family that I got married in Las Vegas on the weekend.
'I am excited to go to Rome next week.'
The use of infinitive ' to go' does not feel right with the future time 'next week'. However, isn't necessarily wrong?
I am excited about going to Rome next week.
'I am sad to do this to you.'
I feel sad about doing this to you.
The usage of 'sad' gives the impression the speaker/ writer does not fully grasp the subtlies of words used for conveying emotions
I am sorry to do this to you.
Is more appropriate...
English grammar is challenging even for native speakers!!!!! |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 1475 Location: KSA
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:49 am Post subject: |
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excuse my rotten spelling, was unable to log back on to make corrections
Grammar and spelling are two of the most challenging aspects of the English language IMHO. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I am sad to do this to you.'
I feel sad about doing this to you.
The usage of 'sad' gives the impression the speaker/ writer does not fully grasp the subtlies of words used for conveying emotions |
Perhaps. But I have heard this from native speakers of English. I suspect that the common denominator is age and education range.
Quote: |
'I was nervous to tell my family.'
This sentence feels incomplete...tell my family what?
I was nervous to tell my family that I got married in Las Vegas on the weekend |
The addition doesn't change the awkward construction of the first clause. Again, I suspect the common denominator is age and education. |
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