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endemic cheating and copying
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12084
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will all end in tears. Mind you, i said that 43 years ago when i first experienced the Magic Kingdom.
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trapezius



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A big percentage of Saudis who go abroad (whether for bachelor's, master's, or doctorates) cheat during their studies, even having master's theses written by others. Assignments and projects being solved by others is very common. I have been approached by so many students to solve their HW and do their projects for them (by both those studying here and those studying in the West), and even solve take-home exams. When I refuse, they say "But I will pay!", as if that's the reason I refuse Rolling Eyes

There are tens of thousands of Saudi studying abroad under the government scholarship program... and many Saudis comment dreamily about how it will be a great day when they all return and take this country to greater heights. Will it really happen like that, or will they all return and demand to become managers, which they do anyway regardless of where they studied and if they studied to begin with...? All the real work will continue to be done by foreigners, whether specialized/technical work, or menial labor.

Nothing will change.
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 15851
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is certainly not just Saudis... or even Arabs, who pay someone to do papers for them. It is not even merely foreign students in English speaking countries... native speakers are their biggest customers I hear. There are websites now that openly sell "original" papers to students on any topic of any length.

This sort of cheating won't show up in the usual search engines used by teachers to stop plagiarism. I'm not sure what the cure for this problem is.

VS
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OzMak



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 34
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fellow math teacher I worked with that spent 20+ years in UAE told me that 40% of their black gold is consumed internally and the remainder being exported. A lot of us are quite aware how much is invested in importing foreign labour rather than training the domestic population.

Quote:
Nothing will change.


Once the black gold dries up, which according to my colleague it will be within the next 10-20 years (depends on supply and demand of course- and not sure where those statistics were pulled from), perhaps the jobs will stop rolling and the camels will start sprinting! Wait, they already are? Razz
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VOM



Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 11
Location: Planet Earth

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Why so glum? Reply with quote

Funny Trapezius and VS lamenting academic plagarism. On reflection, s'not such a bad thing. Actually, everyone involved wins. The awarding college wins vital revenue, ghost writers a wage, essays online websites an income, the foreign student a wizzy qualification, proud parents an exemplary son, a plumb job back in the kingdom, happy employers who will no longer need to to be paying hefty fines for employing capable expats and finally happy, spoiled and well fed Saudi families.

Seriously, there's a great deal to be gained by going the cheating route and so much to lose by trying to do it on your tootsies. Why so glum Mr T and 'Very Sad' VS?


Last edited by VOM on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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cmp45



Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1368
Location: KSA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Why so glum? Reply with quote

VOM wrote:
Funny Trapezius and VS lamenting academic plagarism. On reflection, everyone involved wins. The awarding college wins vital revenue, ghost writers a wage, essays online websites an income, the foreign student a qualification, proud parents, a plumb job on returning back to the kingdom, employers who need no longer pay hefty fines
for employing capable expats and happy well fed Saudi families.
Seriously, there's a great deal to be gained by cheating and so much to lose by trying to do it on your tootsies. Why so glum Mr T and 'Very Sad' VS?


Nice try... Razz
Very Obtuse Morals
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jaffa



Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a good joke on this subject that does the expat rounds out here (too rude to publish) so PM me if you want to hear it Laughing
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desert_traveller



Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saudi students are totally unproductive. You set an exercise and see that 90% of the class are copying from the one or two exceptional students who actually try and work out answers (or have found the key to the exercises somewhere). You can actually observe the answers spreading out from one or two sources in the class, including mistakes, spelling errors etc. It's 100% absolute total waste of time. There isn't even a point in checking the answers. And then you see the most obvious copiers dying to get nominated to read out 'their' answers. And before you think, "these students are totally in the wrong place", let me tell you, no, they aren't. YOU are! Twisted Evil
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cmp45



Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1368
Location: KSA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desert_traveller wrote:
Saudi students are totally unproductive. You set an exercise and see that 90% of the class are copying from the one or two exceptional students who actually try and work out answers (or have found the key to the exercises somewhere). You can actually observe the answers spreading out from one or two sources in the class, including mistakes, spelling errors etc. It's 100% absolute total waste of time. There isn't even a point in checking the answers. And then you see the most obvious copiers dying to get nominated to read out 'their' answers. And before you think, "these students are totally in the wrong place", let me tell you, no, they aren't. YOU are! Twisted Evil


Well then just focus more on the 10% that are trying to learn and don't worry so much about the cheaters. You can only do so much; you can't stop them all from cheating, but doesn't mean you should just turn a blind eye to it either...seems there are two main camps here...teachers that have given up the battle and only focus on the negative aspects; just here to collect a pay check and the others that try to maintain some standards, trying to look at the positive side; reaching the few students that want to learn. I guess you can always take the easy route - adopt VOM's logic or better still just move on to another country. Ah... but you won't leave because you like all that tax free Saudi money, yah???? Laughing

Personally I use the lunatic approach and scare the bee jeezus out of them. If I catch any cheating...look out!!!Only the very stupid or courageous try cheating in my class. If I catch them, they get to experience my hellish wrath. I rant, rave and foam at the mouth like a rapid jackel. I get in their face and make them cry. They lap it up; students like to see the teacher lose face...and also many recognize afterwards that the teacher actually cares enough to risk making an ass of himself. I have it down to an art form; like a performance, but only I know that, the students think I am seriously mad! and even a bit crazy too Laughing I am very hard on my students if I catch any cheating...works for me. I can attest to my technique as I have had many students tell me later, 'Teacher! You are the best teacher I have ever had" Laughing They love the attention! and the drama...after all English class can be so boring! Some classes are worse than others...and don't get me started on mobile phones! I have had students that sit and take my rage and others that have shouted back at me, but after all the frustration has been let out, we say our sorrys and settle down with the lesson. But having said that I can also be alot of fun too Shocked ...but tough love more often than not wins most of them over by the end of the term...and yes, some actual learning does take place...in between the rants! Laughing and... have learned when to pick my battles! Yes they do love to cheat, but it goes with the territory!
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VOM



Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 11
Location: Planet Earth

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:01 am    Post subject: Classroom Rants and Fits Reply with quote

Wow....... chuckle.........cmp45 'blows his top' as a principle form of classroom management. Now that's novel. It has to be secondary and private. You'd get booed out of class in college or university for pulling those kinds of stunts.

And........ranting and foaming at the mouth and getting in their faces. Wow! Who mops up the dribble afterwards? Mad

I am trying hard to remember where before I had seen such performances. Was it in an asylum, a rare diseases hospital, a horror movie or was it in that National Geographic Haitian voodoo dance documentary? Right now, the memory escapes me.

We manage to control cheating but not eliminate it. Our more conventional methods involve using different versions of the same exam, staggered and spaced out seating, strict proctoring arrangements and tough penalties for violations.

It's not perfect but it appears to do the trick.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12084
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yet somehow they do learn something. I am prpared to say that many Saudi students are more mature and responsible than their spaced-out agemates in the UK !
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cmp45



Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1368
Location: KSA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Classroom Rants and Fits Reply with quote

VOM wrote:
Wow....... chuckle.........cmp45 'blows his top' as a principle form of classroom management. Now that's novel. It has to be secondary and private. You'd get booed out of class in college or university for pulling those kinds of stunts.

And........ranting and foaming at the mouth and getting in their faces. Wow! Who mops up the dribble afterwards? Mad

I am trying hard to remember where before I had seen such performances. Was it in an asylum, a rare diseases hospital, a horror movie or was it in that National Geographic Haitian voodoo dance documentary? Right now, the memory escapes me.

We manage to control cheating but not eliminate it. Our more conventional methods involve using different versions of the same exam, staggered and spaced out seating, strict proctoring arrangements and tough penalties for violations.
It's not perfect but it appears to do the trick.


You spent time in an asylum? Shocked Hope you're feeling better now as you seem so normal and sane! Razz

BTW: You mentioned more conventional methods...right...thanks for the insightful tips, I'll be sure to pass them along to the head hauncho Rolling Eyes Arrow ... what are your less conventional methods???
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