Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Schools to Avoid: Westhill, Northridge, Peterson, Atid, ASP
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Mexico
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
tsalinger



Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 8
Location: USA and Mexico

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Schools to Avoid: Westhill, Northridge, Peterson, Atid, ASP Reply with quote

Several weeks ago, I attended an Expat gathering of about 15-20 teachers and these 5 schools from Mexico City and Pachuca seemed to be on everyone's list of schools to avoid for expats.

Westill
American School Pachuca/ASP
Colegio Atid
-Serious administrative issues, unruly students, disciplinary issues, teachers often quit/do not return during breaks during the school year.

Northridge School Mexico/NSM
-Issues regarding racism, serious administrative issues, unruly students, disciplinary issues, teachers often quit/do not return during breaks during the school year

Colegio Peterson
-Issues regarding racism
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9399
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Westhill is no surprise...it is the last chance for the worst of the worst rich kids. Expect to be bitten or stabbed with a pencil if you teach there!

I'm surprised to see Peterson there...what do issues regarding racism mean? They aren't by any means a top school and I know they have administrative issues, but by and large people I know that worked there - Mexicans and foreigners alike - have done pretty well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
tsalinger



Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 8
Location: USA and Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Schools to Avoid: Westhill, Northridge, Peterson, Atid, ASP Reply with quote

what do issues regarding racism mean?

A few comments made by teachers regarding the list above:

"The Directora (from the USA) seems very uncomfortable around "Prietos"... She's an older woman who has not lived in the USA in over 30 years. Behind closed doors she made insensitive and ignorant comments about African-Americans and about the hair style of the only Black girl working at the school. I was appauled at her ignorant comments! Maybe because I'm white, and she's the Directora, she thought it was a OK to make racist comments but it's never OK."

"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."

"I know of 2 teachers that applied for a job. The "Person of Color" with ample experience didn't even get a callback while a Caucasian teacher with no experience was given the position and offered more pay than the experienced "teacher of color." I had to teach next to the inexperienced teacher that was hired based on his "look" and it was a total mess. His classroom was chaotic, no classroom management skills, discipline issues and no learning enviornment. The administration and parents seem more concerned about "image" than they are about education and are "color struck" in regards to hiring "people of color."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sunshinefiasco



Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: Schools to Avoid: Westhill, Northridge, Peterson, Atid, Reply with quote

tsalinger wrote:

"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."



Uhh, I've never been to Mexico, but between teaching in Asia and having lived in another part of Latin America, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this is probably really common?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FreddyM



Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mexico

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: Schools to Avoid: Westhill, Northridge, Peterson, Atid, Reply with quote

tsalinger wrote:
what do issues regarding racism mean?

A few comments made by teachers regarding the list above:

"The Directora (from the USA) seems very uncomfortable around "Prietos"... She's an older woman who has not lived in the USA in over 30 years. Behind closed doors she made insensitive and ignorant comments about African-Americans and about the hair style of the only Black girl working at the school. I was appauled at her ignorant comments! Maybe because I'm white, and she's the Directora, she thought it was a OK to make racist comments but it's never OK."

"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."

"I know of 2 teachers that applied for a job. The "Person of Color" with ample experience didn't even get a callback while a Caucasian teacher with no experience was given the position and offered more pay than the experienced "teacher of color." I had to teach next to the inexperienced teacher that was hired based on his "look" and it was a total mess. His classroom was chaotic, no classroom management skills, discipline issues and no learning enviornment. The administration and parents seem more concerned about "image" than they are about education and are "color struck" in regards to hiring "people of color."


This seems to be pretty common practice at many fancy private schools in Mexico. It's great for someone who's a lousy teacher but meets the "image" profile tho.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9399
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:10 am    Post subject: Re: Schools to Avoid: Westhill, Northridge, Peterson, Atid, Reply with quote

FreddyM wrote:
tsalinger wrote:
what do issues regarding racism mean?

A few comments made by teachers regarding the list above:

"The Directora (from the USA) seems very uncomfortable around "Prietos"... She's an older woman who has not lived in the USA in over 30 years. Behind closed doors she made insensitive and ignorant comments about African-Americans and about the hair style of the only Black girl working at the school. I was appauled at her ignorant comments! Maybe because I'm white, and she's the Directora, she thought it was a OK to make racist comments but it's never OK."

"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."

"I know of 2 teachers that applied for a job. The "Person of Color" with ample experience didn't even get a callback while a Caucasian teacher with no experience was given the position and offered more pay than the experienced "teacher of color." I had to teach next to the inexperienced teacher that was hired based on his "look" and it was a total mess. His classroom was chaotic, no classroom management skills, discipline issues and no learning enviornment. The administration and parents seem more concerned about "image" than they are about education and are "color struck" in regards to hiring "people of color."


This seems to be pretty common practice at many fancy private schools in Mexico. It's great for someone who's a lousy teacher but meets the "image" profile tho.


That's true at a lot places...haven't heard from Peterson before though.

Quote:
"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."


Kids calling each other guero, negro, indio and such? What about flaco, gordo, gato, and a whole host of other things? This particular comment sounds very loaded with cultural bias. Not saying it casts doubt on other complaints, but I have to chortle a bit when I read it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
tsalinger



Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 8
Location: USA and Mexico

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"That's true at a lot places...haven't heard from Peterson before though.
Quote:
"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."
"Kids calling each other guero, negro, indio and such? What about flaco, gordo, gato, and a whole host of other things? This particular comment sounds very loaded with cultural bias. Not saying it casts doubt on other complaints, but I have to chortle a bit when I read it.t's true at a lot places...haven't heard from Peterson before though."

CULTURAL BIAS?
"Cultural Bias is interpreting and judging perceived through someone's own culture. In other words, a person may be biased towards someone else because they do not fit into that person’s own culture, or they may be different."
“A dark eyed, dark-haired Asian/Mexican student (Chinese grandfather and Spanish grandparents) being bullied by insensitive light eyed, light-haired Mexican students and being called “Asian” racial slurs regarding his slightly “Chinese/indigeous” looking eyes and light olive skin which brought him (the “bullied student”) to the point of tears is not cultural bias. This is racism, classism and socialism based on pre-conceived notions of race and so-called “undesirable ethnic features.”

Racism: “is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.”
“Racism is discrimination or prejudice based on race.”

“A school that ignores, rejects, discriminates and “prejudges” qualified/credentialed, educated, Native-English speaking teachers of
"Color" and/or of “Asian descent” based soley on his or her “race” yet hires unqualified/inexperienced, uneducated “Anglo-Saxon” teachers based soley on their “race,” “skin complexion,” “hair” and “eye color” because they believe that a particular “race” is better at teaching English classes: equates to issues of racism.”

And I’m not sure what your connection is with that school, but there were several comments that related directly to that school and were confirmed by 5 people who were very adamant about their experiences, experiences of others and about one administator in particular.

“An administator from the USA making ignorant and derogatory comments regarding the “ethnic” hair style of a teacher of a different race, making generalizations about people of different races, while making another teacher feel uncomfortable is not cultural bias! These are issues regarding racism, ignorance, and intolerance---not cultural bias.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9399
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no professional connection to the school at all. I have friends that work there and a girlfriend that once worked there.

Quote:
"That's true at a lot places...haven't heard from Peterson before though.
Quote:
"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."
"Kids calling each other guero, negro, indio and such? What about flaco, gordo, gato, and a whole host of other things? This particular comment sounds very loaded with cultural bias. Not saying it casts doubt on other complaints, but I have to chortle a bit when I read it.t's true at a lot places...haven't heard from Peterson before though."


You've rearranged my words a bit here have you not?

Quote:
Racism: “is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.”
“Racism is discrimination or prejudice based on race.”


Bullying is one thing, racism is another. My experience here is that foreigners often label something too quickly as racism when there is no intent, and indeed very little sense of racism as we perceive it. That's why I added terms like flaco and gordo - terms also commonly used in bullying. Why single it out as racism? That's a value judgment and highly biased.

Quote:
Racism: “is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.”
“Racism is discrimination or prejudice based on race.”


What we as Americans and Canadians often think of as racism here is thought of very differently in Mexico, or so my experience goes. After all, exactly which 'races' (your definition) are we referring to? Mexico is a million shades of brown between white and black.

Quote:
“An administator from the USA making ignorant and derogatory comments regarding the “ethnic” hair style of a teacher of a different race, making generalizations about people of different races, while making another teacher feel uncomfortable is not cultural bias! These are issues regarding racism, ignorance, and intolerance---not cultural bias.”


I didn't say it was. Go back and read what I wrote if you must. I've only addressed the bullying issue you brought up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Phil_K



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 1825
Location: A World of my Own

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all my years in Mexico, I have never perceived Mexicans to be racist. Instead, there is a curiosity about people from other cultures, which may lead to constant questions if you are "different". Actually, in my opinion, to a certain extent the opposite applies; there seems to be a respect and admiration for other cultures, part of the malinchismo alive and well in Mexico.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tsalinger



Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 8
Location: USA and Mexico

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
"That's true at a lot places...haven't heard from Peterson before though. ..."Kids calling each other guero, negro, indio and such? What about flaco, gordo, gato, and a whole host of other things? This particular comment sounds very loaded with cultural bias. Not saying it casts doubt on other complaints, but I have to chortle a bit when I read it."
"You've rearranged my words a bit here have you not?" ..."Bullying is one thing, racism is another. My experience here is that foreigners often label something too quickly as racism when there is no intent, and indeed very little sense of racism as we perceive it. That's why I added terms like flaco and gordo - terms also commonly used in bullying. Why single it out as racism? That's a value judgment and highly biased."


First off, I was born in Mexico, raised in the USA but have lived a significant amount of time in both countries. So, I think that I know more about racism in Mexico than an expat from another country who looks through his own culturally biased eyes. I’m a Mexican, a bilingual and bicultural Mexican-American who has been called, “guero”, “gordo” and “gringo” in Mexico because of my complexion and height, however these terms have nothing to do with what I posted in regards to “bullying” nor do I deem those comments (“Guero”, “Gordo” or “Gringo”) offensive or racists terms towards me!

Secondly, I would agree that most Mexican students calling each other “guerro” or “gordo” would not be racist yet the student that was bullied lived most of his life in China and the USA while the student that bullied him lived most of his life in the USA and Spain. And this was not an isolated incident. These are “international students” living in Mexico at so-called “international schools.”

Internationally students and Mexican students that have lived in countries such as the USA who understand the difference between name calling and racial slurs, and they know exactly what they are doing! These are not innocent acts of bullying as you try to infer. And my previous comment regarding “bullying” does not reflect “Mexican students” in general, they reflect “international” Mexican students at “international schools” who are very aware of racism and classism in Mexico.

Quote:
“What we as Americans and Canadians often think of as racism here is thought of very differently in Mexico, or so my experience goes. After all, exactly which 'races' (your definition) are we referring to? Mexico is a million shades of brown between white and black.”


Thirdly, the administrator who made the offensive comments is not Mexican. She is an older white woman from the USA who made comments regarding a Black teacher and generalizations regarding Black people which made a white teacher feel uncomfortable.

Next, I noticed that you seemed to argue:
Quote:
“After all, exactly which 'races' (your definition) are we referring to? Mexico is a million shades of brown between white and black.”

Yet I was very specific: “A school that ignores, rejects, discriminates and “prejudges” qualified/credentialed, educated, Native-English speaking teachers of “Asian descent” (example: “CHINESE race”) based soley on his or her “race” yet hires unqualified/inexperienced, uneducated “Anglo-Saxon” (so-called “White race” ) teachers based soley on their “race,” “skin complexion,” “hair” and “eye color” because they believe that a particular “race” is better at teaching English classes: equates to issues of racism.” As well as a White administrator from the USA making insensitive and racist comments about Black people and a Black Teacher at her school = RACISM which offended a White teacher and others at the school. Maybe because… you can ignore that racism like this exist in Mexico (and around the world) because I assume, as a “white guy” from Canada: (as I was told, if this is correct), you would not be discriminating against when looking for an English teaching job as an Asian (“Chinese” race) teacher with stereotypical Asian features who’s photo is posted on his resume would be. So, you can pretend it’s cultural bias, “innocent bullying” (when applicable), being over sensitive or whatever else you want to call it, but it’s known as RACISM all over the world.

Quote:
“What we as Americans and Canadians often think of as racism here is thought of very differently in Mexico, or so my experience goes. After all, exactly which 'races' (your definition) are we referring to? Mexico is a million shades of brown between white and black.”


Also, I find it ironic and highly biased that you commented on how “Americans think” yet you are Canadian. Canada is not America nor does it have the same history in regards as racism as the USA and from what you wrote, you do not seem like a person qualified to comments about what “Americans think”… You’re not American, I AM. And I’m also Mexican! So, for me, your comments seem highly biased and filled with your own cultural bias. Especially if you have never personally experienced racism as it exists in many parts of the world today, like in the USA not in CANADA. Yet, you chose to comment about “how Americans think”---yet you’re not American! Just like, your comments about Peterson, your girlfriend worked at Peterson in the past or you know people that work at the school, this doesn’t make you an expert on the school. You didn’t work there---it’s your opinion. Just like your comment in reference to “How Americans think” (You’re not American). And the big difference is that the person/persons that commented about Peterson did or still work there. And no, I have not rearranged your words. Maybe you should go back and read your 2 separate posts where you repeatedly referred to Peterson and your lack of understanding for the words “race” and racism---which seems to reflect your cultural bias based on your “or so my experience goes.”

So, it seems to me that you are suffering from cultural bias and impaired vision based on your “or so my experience goes” which seems to cause you to ignore or "chortle" comments that you cannot comprehend like racism in Mexico, "what Americans think" (you're not AMERICAN) or what several people found offensive regarding an administrator from the USA working at a school in Mexico. "Which makes me “chortle” and ignore your snide comments."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tsalinger



Joined: 05 Oct 2012
Posts: 8
Location: USA and Mexico

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil_K wrote:
In all my years in Mexico, I have never perceived Mexicans to be racist. Instead, there is a curiosity about people from other cultures, which may lead to constant questions if you are "different". Actually, in my opinion, to a certain extent the opposite applies; there seems to be a respect and admiration for other cultures, part of the malinchismo alive and well in Mexico.


Never perceived racism in Mexico? Read these articles and videos:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/20/opinion/navarrette-mexico-racism

In Mexico, racism hides in plain view
By Ruben Navarrette Jr., CNN Contributor
updated 11:01 AM EST, Tue November 20, 2012

Editor's note: Ruben Navarrette Jr. is a CNN contributor and a nationally syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group. Follow him on Twitter: @rubennavarrette
(CNN) -- Mexico City, home to 20 million people, represents the paradox of the modern Mexico, the side-by-side juxtaposition -- in everything from politics to architecture -- of old and new.
Turn a corner, and you'll see a church that is 300 years old. Turn another, and you can get Wi-Fi in a Starbucks.
The Distrito Federal, also known as Mexico City, serves as a constant reminder that Mexicans are about maintaining tradition, except when they're sidestepping it. They're about moving forward, except when they are unable to let go of the past. They're about preserving memory, except when they have amnesia.

And yet, even with all the progress and openness in Mexico over the past few years, there is still one subject that no one talks about, one that is still off-limits: race.

The enduring taboo subject is skin color, whether an individual's complexion betrays an allegiance to the Spanish who conquered the Aztec empire in 1521 or the Aztecs who were conquered. It's no exaggeration to say that, in this country and especially in this city, the best, highest-paying, most important jobs often seem to go to those who, in addition to having the best education and the strongest connections, have the lightest skin.

On television, in politics and in academia, you see light-skinned people. On construction sites, in police forces and in restaurant kitchens, you're more likely to find those who are dark-skinned. In the priciest neighborhoods, the homeowners have light skin, and the housekeepers are dark. Everyone knows this, and yet no one talks about it, at least not in elite circles.

Nor do Mexicans seem all that eager to discuss the larger dynamic that race feeds into: the fact that this is, and has always been, a country of deep divisions. In the 100 years since the Mexican Revolution, one part of Mexico has often been at war with another: urban vs. rural, rich vs. poor and, yes, dark-skinned vs. light-skinned.

It's one reason that institutions such as the economy, the political system and the social structure haven't matured as quickly as they should have, given Mexico's advantages.

This country of 120 million people has ports, highways, airports and skyscrapers. It takes in billions of dollars every year in revenues from oil and natural gas, and billions more from tourism and remittances from Mexican migrants living abroad. Mexico's economy is growing faster than the U.S. economy, and investments are flowing in from Asia and Europe. It's consistently within the top three of trading partners for the United States. But what good is all that when only a small number of the population can live up to their full potential?

Prejudice kills progress.

The hour is late. It's time for Mexico to confront the color line and free itself of its past. Or it won't have much of a future.
Follow us on Twitter @CNNOpinion.
Join us on Facebook/CNNOpinion.



http://latindispatch.com/2011/12/21/mexico-racism-prevalent-among-children-revealing-cultural-pattern-study/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_583468&feature=iv&src_vid=oOZmtcv9WR0&v=kXq27eASXoo
Racist attitudes continue to be passed down to Mexico’s children, according to a video released by a federal government agency in the country last week as part of a campaign to fight racism.
“Viral Racism in Mexico” by the National Council for the Prevention of Discrimination (Conapred in Spanish), shows scenes from interviews shot in October and November with children who are presented with two dolls — one white and one black. Interviewers then ask children questions including, “Which is the ugly one and which is the pretty one? Which is the good one and which is the bad one?”
Child respondents repeatedly selected the black doll as the ugly or bad one — even children who identified more closely with the black doll because of their skin color.
While the four-minute video presents only edited versions of a handful of interviews, Conapred director Ricardo Bucio told The Latin America News Dispatch that the responses were indicative of the study of 100 participants between the ages of 6 and 10.
“It was a little more surprising than we expected,” Bucio said.
The researchers’ interviews, conducted in October and November, included children of varying skin colors and students from both public and private schools.
When asked which doll is bad, a white respondent pointed to the black doll. Asked to elaborate, the respondent said “Well, this one is black and this one is white.”
When an interviewer asked a brown-skinned girl to explain why she identified the black doll as the ugly one, she said “because I don’t like the color brown.”
A brown-skinned boy identified the white doll as the “good” one, and said he had “a little more trust” in whites when asked to explain his answer. Later, when asked which doll he more resembled, the boy — visibly unsure of himself — looked back and forth between the two before settling on the white one. He identified the doll’s ears as the point of similarity.
Bucio said the study indicated that Mexicans tend to place higher social value on light skin — a phenomenon some of the children mentioned explicitly. When an interviewer asked one brown-skinned girl why she liked the white doll better than the dark one, she said “because his eyes are beautiful and his race too.”
The video is part of a larger campaign by Conapred to raise awareness about racism in Mexico. The campaign gained its sense of urgency, Bucio said, after a national survey published last year found that 60 percent of Mexicans said they had insulted others because of their skin color, 40 percent said they treated people differently based on skin color and 11 percent felt such discrimination was justified.
“Mexico is recognized as a country where there is machismo,” Bucio said, referring to a Latin variant of sexism. “But there are issues like racism and classism that we haven’t developed the same tools to confront.”
The deep-seated nature of racism in Mexico revealed itself in unexpected ways during the course of the study.
After designing the study, the researchers found that they were unable to purchase a dark-skinned doll because no one sold them, according to Bucio. “They had to take a white one and repaint it,” he said.
Conapred modeled its work on that of U.S. African-American psychologists Kenneth and Mamie Clark, who used dolls to study children’s perceptions of race in the 1940s.

http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/1751-racism-and-business-in-mexico
Racism And Business In Mexico

Ilya Adler
Doing Business in Mexico

Although denied officially and, personally by many Mexicans, racism in Mexico is so evident that most foreigners notice it right All you have to do is look at Mexican-produced television programs, especially the internationally-known genre of Mexican telenovelas (soap operas). There you will see many Caucasians playing leading roles, while the darker-complected people who make up the vast majority of the population are relegated to minor roles such as maids, chauffeurs, or criminals. Even when the story line is about a maid who falls in love with the rich kid of the house (a rather typical one, which by the way conveys the notion that the only way out of poverty in Mexico is through love), the actress who plays the role is usually white. And more often than not, in the end we discover that she is the illegitimate child of a rich man or woman - in other words, her biological roots are those of the "nice" people. It's even worse than that. In Mexico, a strange and probably morally depressing phenomenon has occurred in the last 20 to 30 years. Before that there was a concept of a Mexican beauty - usually dark hair, dark eyes, but Spanish-looking (not Indian). But these days blonde is in, so you would think that blond hair is common and natural for Mexicans. While in other countries such as the U.S., Canada, and England, models, actors and actresses have become "darker" (at least we see many more of them), in Mexico it is quite the opposite.
Racism is equally present in the world of business. Go to a gathering of business executives, and while you are starting to see some (but few) women, you do not see "dark" people. Read want ads, and often you will find the words " presentación impeccable" (impeccable looks), which is a coded phrase to mean white and good looking. In a recent study conducted by a some of my students, observation was made on popular, high- middle-class dancing places where, believe it or not, dissertational decisions are made about who gets in and who doesn't. According to this study, the most discriminated people were over-weight women who are darker, followed by dark people in general. Restaurants often make excuses not to allow people who might look "poor" (usually associated with racial features). And way too many businesses are targeting mostly that richer (and whiter) segment, which - while having the income to consume - represent only 10 to 15% of the population at most.
If you are a foreigner, you will be easily drawn to this Mexico. The people who speak English are probably richer and whiter, and they are equally more attracted to befriending a European, American or Canadian. Thus, without even trying, as a white foreigner you will be quickly surrounded by either other foreigners, or by Mexicans who seem comfortable with you, but who hold little interest in, knowledge of or a positive attitude toward the majority of his/her fellow-nationals.
If you decide to reside in a place like San Miguel de Allende, by now practically conquered by European, American and various other foreign groups that very much tend to be white, you might get a neighbor who is Mexican (white), and will probably have a maid who is native-looking. While you are physically in Mexico, culturally you are in an invented city.
The fact that business practices reinforce racist attitudes is often "explained" by the usual arguments that all business people use, which is to claim that business simply follows the tastes and preferences of their market. This is not only morally repugnant, but it's simply not true. Prejudice also blinds some so-called rational business people, and they themselves cannot but treat better someone who is white, regardless of their income level. This is another way of denying service to people who simply deviate from what is considered "nice" (usually white), and who - from a strictly business perspective - is obviously a lost opportunity. To put it another way: Racism is also bad business.
Much as was the case in the United States, many Mexican business-people believe poor people in Mexico are much too poor to buy much, other than the very essentials. So if you do not sell essentials, don't bother with them. Yet, while it is true that they may buy less of non-essentials on per capita basis, it does not mean that all they purchase are essentials. Poor people also vacation, also eat out, also go theatres, also buy decoration for their homes. Poor people are just like other people in their consumption behavior, but of course, price is a much bigger issue.
So what is a better business? To open a restaurant with the richer segment in mind, where a typical dinner might cost 70-100 dollars, or a restaurant that is more affordable, selling tacos, or sandwiches, or roasted chicken, to name some of the products that typically sell for less? The answer is neither easy nor obvious. Plenty of people in Mexico can and have made money selling to the poorer (and darker) population. The hugely successful store-chain Elektra is an example. I can only imagine a white European, American or Canadian setting up shop where people who look like the majority of Mexicans live, and being very successful. No doubt they would be so surprised that such a person would even think of setting up shop in their neighborhood, they would come to your business just out of curiosity.
And while doing this, you will discover something closer to the real Mexico, enriching your life as well as your wallet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MotherF



Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1128
Location: 17°48'N 97°46'W

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Guy and Phil's defense, I don't think you gave enough info in your original post. I've been in Mexico for 15 years and had a steady stream of colleagues who were quick shocked to be called guero/a and usually misunderstand the intent behind it at first. I'm sure Guy and Phil have had similar experiences.

BUT, I'm very very disheartened to hear they don't think racism is problem in Mexico. That leads me to infer that they spend their time in a very isolated circle. The amount of racism people I love have experienced is one of my least favorite things about Mexico. Crying or Very sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guy Courchesne



Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9399
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BUT, I'm very very disheartened to hear they don't think racism is problem in Mexico.


That's two of you now putting words in my mouth I didn't write. Crying or Very sad At least you didn't use the quote feature to move my responses around.

Quote:
Internationally students and Mexican students that have lived in countries such as the USA who understand the difference between name calling and racial slurs, and they know exactly what they are doing! These are not innocent acts of bullying as you try to infer. And my previous comment regarding “bullying” does not reflect “Mexican students” in general, they reflect “international” Mexican students at “international schools” who are very aware of racism and classism in Mexico.


That's quite the leap from commenting on a single quote given by someone other than you...

Quote:
"Students "Bully" each other with insults and racial slurs regarding the complexion of their skin."


and presumes a lot of who international students are. They are a much more diverse group than that. In fact, the majority of them have never lived abroad or studied abroad. You read too much into what the term 'international' means here. Peterson doesn't even deserve the designation. I think you're spinning a tale here, and honestly, what is the point?

Quote:
Next, I noticed that you seemed to argue: Quote:
“After all, exactly which 'races' (your definition) are we referring to? Mexico is a million shades of brown between white and black.”


Yet I was very specific: “A school that ignores, rejects, discriminates and “prejudges” qualified/credentialed, educated, Native-English speaking teachers of “Asian descent” (example: “CHINESE race”) based soley on his or her “race” yet hires unqualified/inexperienced, uneducated “Anglo-Saxon” (so-called “White race” ) teachers based soley on their “race,” “skin complexion,” “hair” and “eye color” because they believe that a particular “race” is better at teaching English classes: equates to issues of racism.” As well as a White administrator from the USA making insensitive and racist comments about Black people and a Black Teacher at her school = RACISM which offended a White teacher and others at the school. Maybe because… you can ignore that racism like this exist in Mexico (and around the world) because I assume, as a “white guy” from Canada: (as I was told, if this is correct), you would not be discriminating against when looking for an English teaching job as an Asian (“Chinese” race) teacher with stereotypical Asian features who’s photo is posted on his resume would be. So, you can pretend it’s cultural bias, “innocent bullying” (when applicable), being over sensitive or whatever else you want to call it, but it’s known as RACISM all over the world.


Rant over?

I only ever commented on the bullying quote. You are ascribing a lot to me here that I haven't said. Of course racism exists everywhere. Of course it exists in Mexico. Of course your administrator example is racism.

Quote:
Also, I find it ironic and highly biased that you commented on how “Americans think” yet you are Canadian. Canada is not America nor does it have the same history in regards as racism as the USA and from what you wrote, you do not seem like a person qualified to comments about what “Americans think”… You’re not American, I AM. And I’m also Mexican! So, for me, your comments seem highly biased and filled with your own cultural bias. Especially if you have never personally experienced racism as it exists in many parts of the world today, like in the USA not in CANADA. Yet, you chose to comment about “how Americans think”---yet you’re not American! Just like, your comments about Peterson, your girlfriend worked at Peterson in the past or you know people that work at the school, this doesn’t make you an expert on the school. You didn’t work there---it’s your opinion. Just like your comment in reference to “How Americans think” (You’re not American). And the big difference is that the person/persons that commented about Peterson did or still work there. And no, I have not rearranged your words. Maybe you should go back and read your 2 separate posts where you repeatedly referred to Peterson and your lack of understanding for the words “race” and racism---which seems to reflect your cultural bias based on your “or so my experience goes.”

So, it seems to me that you are suffering from cultural bias and impaired vision based on your “or so my experience goes” which seems to cause you to ignore or "chortle" comments that you cannot comprehend like racism in Mexico, "what Americans think" (you're not AMERICAN) or what several people found offensive regarding an administrator from the USA working at a school in Mexico. "Which makes me “chortle” and ignore your snide comments."


APPLAUSE.

My skin color or nationality should be irrelevant to your assumptions - but since they seem to define your assumptions about me, I'll guess you're trying to make a point about racism.

If you'll return to my comments (and stick to them please), my 'experience' in this country is considerable in dealing with foreign teachers. I think it's very common for teachers to be taken aback by the ease at which people throw around terms of address such as guero, negro, flaco, and gordo. Those are American and Canadian teachers mostly, but they include others. The most common reaction I see is for those teachers to label what they hear as racism, though they've not spent much time in Mexico.

So when I see a one-off comment from a foreign teacher about students bullying each other with racial slurs, I do indeed chortle. No, I'm not an expert on Peterson. My long years dealing with foreign teachers make me no more an expert on that school than your own nationality makes you an expert on being American. You think your experience helps your opinion...so does mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Phil_K



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 1825
Location: A World of my Own

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MotherF wrote:
To Guy and Phil's defense, I don't think you gave enough info in your original post. I've been in Mexico for 15 years and had a steady stream of colleagues who were quick shocked to be called guero/a and usually misunderstand the intent behind it at first. I'm sure Guy and Phil have had similar experiences.

BUT, I'm very very disheartened to hear they don't think racism is problem in Mexico. That leads me to infer that they spend their time in a very isolated circle. The amount of racism people I love have experienced is one of my least favorite things about Mexico. Crying or Very sad


Absolutely correct MotherF Wink I reluctantly live in Mexico and move in the same circles that I would if were still the UK. I have to live my life in the way that makes me happiest, and if that means I'm not considered "integrated", so be it. Guess what? I don't eat much Mexican food either! Now there's an honest answer! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phil_K



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 1825
Location: A World of my Own

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the record, Mexico is 60% mestizo 30% indigenous and 10% other, so of course in any given situation, 7/10 people are going to be non-indigenous, but the ones-who-want-to-put-the-world-to-rights only like statistics in their favor, don't they?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Mexico All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC