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Native Speaker vs. Polish Teachers of English
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 658
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:45 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Does this really matter anyway? When I was learning French at school....I didn't give a hoot about my French teachers speaking English all the time and the one who insisted on using French at all times was universally despised and no-one could understand what he was going on about half the time. A good mix of L1 and L2 is healthy I reckon.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12102
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I achieved fluency in two modern foreign languges without any native speakerteacher involvement until the very end of the process. This "native speaker" idea is nonsense.

In many cases it is propagated by the native speakers themselves who think they have some indispensable Karma without which the language cannot be acquired.


Last edited by scot47 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 658
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: yep Reply with quote

Couldn't agree more.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 917
Location: Itabashi, Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scot47 wrote:
I achieved fluency in two modern foreign l;anguges without any native speakerteacher involvement until the very end of the process. This "native speaker" idea is nonsense.

In many cases it is propagated by the native speakers themselves who think they have some indispensable Karma without which the language cannot be acquired.
I'm not convinced. I've worked with a lot of Polish and native speaker teachers over the last 5 years. Like Simon, there are only a handful of Polish teachers I'd wholeheartedly recommend.

I don't care if they passed CPE 15 years ago, there is such a thing as language shrinkage - i.e. if you don't constantly use a foreign language, you get worse at it. So why all the Polish in the staff room? I've seen Polish teachers make some pretty basic mistakes, even on their handouts. I've worked with CAE teachers who really should be sitting in my CAE class.

Then there are accent, pronunciation and cultural factors.

I know some countries, like Sweden, manage to acquire a very high level of English without native speakers, but from what I've seen, Poland isn't there yet. Native speakers are still needed here.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 658
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:52 am    Post subject: ahem Reply with quote

Love the focus on 'grammar mistakes' here. If you look at TOEFL, IELTS, KET, PET etc the focus is on the 4 skills.

I've met loads of Poles whose English is fantastic. Graduates from the UAM philology department I've encountered have been particularly strong...RP English to boot.

I agree there is a need for native speakers but like Scott 47 concur that it's overstated.

And let's not forget...old timers...many expat teachers in Poland don't know their a** from their elbow. Many are straight off CELTA's or have got 3 or 4 years experience total.

At higher levels, depending on the students' aims there is a need for us but we also know that at higher levels, students can study alone.

The big cities are pretty cosmopolitan now and many Polish language students know 'foreigners' with whom to practise conversation.
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oipivo



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 152
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And let's not forget...old timers...many expat teachers in Poland don't know their a** from their elbow. Many are straight off CELTA's or have got 3 or 4 years experience total.


I've met loads of "old timers" who were just as useless as new teachers. Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't mean that they're good at it.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 658
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Ahem Reply with quote

However, some of them are very good.....achieve stupendous results in international certificates and have amazing observations after which they are told that they will never be observed again....and then politely asked if they can train the less experienced bunch Wink many of whom think they themselves are great and 'the best teacher in the school'.

I was lucky...I had some wise bosses early on. Freelancers are the worst culprits........often with the shabbiest habits.
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oipivo



Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 152
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Humility isn't a common trait among you Brits is it? Very Happy
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 658
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:45 am    Post subject: ahem Reply with quote

Look we invented, football, trains, the TV, the jet engine, the NET, the hovercraft, Yorkshire puddings and had the greatest empire the world's ever seen. Humility is not in our blood. Worst thing we ever did was give you guys your independence.....you've been very chippy ever since.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 8928
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football a British invention? The rules for it were codified in Britain first, that is all. The game existed in Europe long before that.

The jet engine was as much a German invention as it was a British one - Hans von Ohain et al.

The TV is also subject to serious dispute, with rival American, Scottish and even Russian claims.

The empire is usually regarded as an embarrassing blot on the history books, but it is true about the hovercraft and the Yorkshire puddings : )

Quick question, to get back on-topic: are there many Poles working as Celta trainers, Cambridge examiners etc., as there are Russian teachers of English here in Moscow?
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 917
Location: Itabashi, Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oipivo wrote:
Humility isn't a common trait among you Brits is it? Very Happy
Apparently, neither is accuracy with historical facts. Are you sure you're not actually part French, dragonpiwo? They're quite renowned for their casual rewriting of history. Very Happy

Sashadroogie, when I did the CELT-YL extension in Warsaw in 2012, it was run by 2 Polish women. One of the 3 DELTA trainers I had here was Polish. All three of these Poles had spent years living abroad.

Does anyone know why so few Polish men teach English? At least 85% of Polish teachers I've known have been women. Is teaching traditionally just seen as a woman's profession by Poles?
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 855
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: ahem Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
Look we invented, football, trains, the TV, the jet engine, the NET, the hovercraft, Yorkshire puddings and had the greatest empire the world's ever seen. Humility is not in our blood. Worst thing we ever did was give you guys your independence.....you've been very chippy ever since.


Speaking of rewritten history.......
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 658
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Yeah Shake that is a weird phenomenon.......middle-aged Polish women! Guess they're supported by hubbies who earn more.

And re the American Intifada/2nd British Civil War......well, we only sent the B team over didn't we Wink.....
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1022

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh how i loathe the quote function on this forum. you want to quote one sentence, yet it always ends up quoting the entire post and then you're left cutting out what you don't want....and then it doesn't put the right stuff in quotes......anywho....

Mastershake wrote:

"I've seen Polish teachers make some pretty basic mistakes, even on their handouts. I've worked with CAE teachers who really should be sitting in my CAE class.

Then there are accent, pronunciation and cultural factors."

+1

Mastershake wrote:

"I know some countries, like Sweden, manage to acquire a very high level of English without native speakers, but from what I've seen, Poland isn't there yet."

it's mainly because a place like Sweden has fully integrated English into their culture. in Sweden, when you turn on the TV and there's an American/British TV program, it's in plain English. No lektor, often times no subtitles. People grow up listening to real English, which is why they speak real English. In Poland, English is still reserved for classrooms and advertisements.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 658
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

...and bar speak Smile
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