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Infinite



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
Infinite...and your point is?


It's quite simple, no matter where you go, it's all the same. You'll always have those who make minimum wage, which unfortunately will be the vast majority and those who make more. Anyone complaining about making what they make on a native speaker salary sounds absurd by any standard.

Would you like me to draw it for you now?
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 780
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infinite wrote:
sparks wrote:
Quote:
2,000 NET per month is actually a very good salary for people in small towns, most don't even make that.


It might be alright for someone established in a small town, who lived there for his/her whole life, has family etc.

I do think it is reckless to in anyway suggest that the offer IN THE OP is an acceptable salary for an English teacher. You even bring up the 5000 zl/month for a small town is possible/affords a decent standard of living--agreed. Why anyone would work for half of that is beyond me. I think it is possible to reach a middle ground if people take off both the rose-colored and the Prada glasses Smile


Well, the main difference between Poles and native speakers is quite simple - native speakers are immigrants... Poles are not. If you look at the life of immigrants back in your home country I'm pretty sure you'd agree that they have to work much harder to earn the bare minimum and with that, they can't afford to live the life of an average minimum wage earning citizen. THAT goes without saying... however it seems to me that most people on this forum haven't really thought of it from that perspective. For some reason, anglo-saxon expats don't think of themselves as immigrants... it might have something to do with the colonial mind set or a slight superiority complex, but living abroad, that's exactly what we are and living an immigrant life is what we do... yet, we have a special asset which all other nations lack. We are born with a job.


I do not know of any native speaker teachers who have immigrated to Poland (or any other country). Residing in a foreign country (being an expat) is totally different than immigrating.
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Infinite



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ha, you must not get out much... I know plenty... families, lives, fluent Polish, citizenships and the whole 9... just goes to show doesn't it.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 780
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infinite wrote:
ha, you must not get out much... I know plenty... families, lives, fluent Polish, citizenships and the whole 9... just goes to show doesn't it.


Sure does:

Just pick and chose what you want to say whenever you feel like it.....

"Well, the main difference between Poles and native speakers is quite simple - native speakers are immigrants..."

I know dozens in a dozen or more countries and know of none.

Some are but it's simply not true as a flat statement.

There's a big difference in saying some native speakers chose to immigrate versus "native speakers are immigrants."
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 463
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Infinite, it isn't the same no matter where you go. Most developed democracies have a large 'middle class', so the 'vast majority' aren't on a minimum wage. Just Google income distribution graphs.

Do you want me to draw one?
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 985

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infinite wrote:

Quote:
Yet, back home, millions of our fellow citizens earn $8 per hour... and live....


terribly.

Infinite wrote:

Quote:
The era of Poles being able to support themselves on the abysmal minimum wage is drawing to an end. The post communist regulation which allowed them to buy out their flats for pennies on a dollar is over. The next generation will join the wonderful western world of living on borrowed time and money.


indeed. it's scary to think about the drastic change Poland will go through when all the hand me down commie flats are uninhabitable and need to be torn down along with the 100 year old houses great grandpa built. For many Poles, the only reason they can afford to put food on their plates is because they live mortgage free and their country is completely socialized. It baffled me when I first came to Poland and spoke to people about how they lived. Time and time again it was a flat passed down by their families and it cost them nothing to live there.

Poland's "new" real estate will result in a complete economic overhaul.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 463
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

You're right Dynow. My ex-wife has a hand-me-down flat, my fiancée has a hand-me-down flat and I'm currently house hunting. I've literally looked at hundreds if not thousands of houses and flats online and I've gotta say it's hard finding a place for reasons which include; totally ridiculous asking prices; horrendous old plumbing and electrics; totally unfinished places; shoddy build quality but most of all awfully planned insides with weird shaped rooms, huge halls but tiny bedrooms and so on. And, what is it with Kermit the frog green paint? There but have been a job-lot of it in Poland at some point, easily fixable I know but a reflection on shabby taste. I looked at a new build place yesterday, which was painted purple-wtf? My colleague lives in Turkey, which is another country doing well. Huge flats and houses can be had there for 50-70 thousand Euro. When I look at the shoe boxes in Poland , which cost more, I just gasp. The market isn't efficient for sure.

When I was married, a typical week involved going to babcia's and eating and going to the parents and eating. Every visit resulted in a food parcel. As I said, the flat was given to her for free. Her dad bought her car. My current partner is an HR manageress and gets a free car and petrol, free phone and all her food, she also has a hand-me down flat, which we don't live in. Both are in the pension system, so will get something and both will receive benefits if sick.

It's ridiculous to say that a native speaker is the same as a Pole when it comes to how they can live on their own salary, whether they have a good or bad one.

Poland looks richer now and incomes have gone up ever so slightly but less, much less than inflation over a decade. What has changed is that the young generation are and will be financed by debt. For TEFL teachers the wages simply haven't gone up. The figures people bandy around on here as being good were what you could earn in 96 or 97 and I know cos I did it.
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Infinite



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the reasoning behind expats vs. immigrants silly. Millions immigrants go back to their homelands... on top of that, their children do too. Now more than ever even. Yet, the difference between the anglo-saxon and the rest of the world is drawn in the sand and it can't be crossed. Kind of absurd way of looking at the world from the saxon horse. In my small town alone there are four expat families, in Warsaw I knew a bunch from Canada, Ireland, the UK and the US even New Zealand... know some in Krakow and in Wroclaw as well. The longer you live somewhere, the more you end up meeting, they blend in. My first year here I met an American who was a very prominent lawyer in Warsaw, perfect Polish, you'd never know. That's just Poland... there are thousands all over this planet, just not on this board... oh, wait... as far as we can tell there are at least two active with families... and I know for a fact that there are three others lurking. Wow... incredible.
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Infinite



Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dynow wrote:
Infinite wrote:

Quote:
Yet, back home, millions of our fellow citizens earn $8 per hour... and live....


terribly.



That's true, nevertheless they exist. Thousands of 7/11s, WaWas, Walmarts, Shoprites, A&Ps, Gas stations, Diners etc etc etc... with millions of people working there... making peanuts... same as it is here... same over there.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 780
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infinite wrote:
I find the reasoning behind expats vs. immigrants silly. Millions immigrants go back to their homelands... on top of that, their children do too. Now more than ever even. Yet, the difference between the anglo-saxon and the rest of the world is drawn in the sand and it can't be crossed. Kind of absurd way of looking at the world from the saxon horse. In my small town alone there are four expat families, in Warsaw I knew a bunch from Canada, Ireland, the UK and the US even New Zealand... know some in Krakow and in Wroclaw as well. The longer you live somewhere, the more you end up meeting, they blend in. My first year here I met an American who was a very prominent lawyer in Warsaw, perfect Polish, you'd never know. That's just Poland... there are thousands all over this planet, just not on this board... oh, wait... as far as we can tell there are at least two active with families... and I know for a fact that there are three others lurking. Wow... incredible.


Minor numbers, VERY minor. None appear to be here despite the claim they are lurking. The numbers of people giving up their British, American, Canadian and Australian passports is extremely low. The tens of thousands of expats (TEFL and otherwise) overwhelmingly retain their citizenship even when they marry abroad and raise families.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 780
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Infinite wrote:
dynow wrote:
Infinite wrote:

Quote:
Yet, back home, millions of our fellow citizens earn $8 per hour... and live....


terribly.



That's true, nevertheless they exist. Thousands of 7/11s, WaWas, Walmarts, Shoprites, A&Ps, Gas stations, Diners etc etc etc... with millions of people working there... making peanuts... same as it is here... same over there.


Normal conditions.

There will always be a strata of low-income earners. They will struggle to survive and, through the struggle, some will break free to enjoy differences while others toil until retirement. Even when your world is black it's good to know it's brightly lit somewhere.

Economic and social change is difficult at any time. The reality is that the government cannot control these factors in the long-term. The artificial props of wage and price controls, subsidies, welfare giveaways cannot be sustained without production of goods.

One of my students was laughing at the protesters earlier this week. "They pitch their tents and mill about doing nothing. What do they expect the government to do?"

I notice they want the retirement age returned back to the old level (from 67) yet the reality is there have to be enough workers producing goods and paying taxes to support the pension system and the unemployed.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 463
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Ecocks Reply with quote

I think most of us younger folk know we'll be working till we drop. For me that's OK because I get bored when I have too much time off. I quite fancy doing a couple of privates a day from my front room or doing online work as an old fuddy duddy, then sitting back with a bottle of wine.

In the UK new laws are coming into place whereby private work related schemes will be compulsory.

I'm looking into it now...better late than never!
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stonethecrow



Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick update after 4 months here.
The bad bits - surly or shouty teenagers and a superior often lacking tact.
Good bits - It's a decent company to work for. I like most of my colleagues. The boss is an English bloke and seems fair in what he does.

Working Saturday mornings was a bitch at first but I'm used to it now.

As for the money and the accommodation... the money is fine, I get by quite easily on it. However, I've got a holiday planned and the ski season has started so I'll see how I get on for the next month or two. Living in a small, cheap town helps. At the moment though, the bank account is nice and stable, verging on being portly. (think the Fat Conductors cousin who is a banker)
Accommodation is OK too, maybe I'm easily pleased. A 2 minute walk (often run) to work is brilliant.

So despite the lingering haze of gloom and occasional howl of doom about TEFL jobs in Poland, there are jobs for newbies that are, I'd go as far as to say, good.

Whether I stay on another year is another matter.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 780
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About normal then.
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