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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daveric wrote:
Sashadroogie wrote:
Are you serious?

You apparently have not even clicked on the links I gave.

With over 26,000 women harmed by HPV vaccine and over 80 deaths, you could say I'm dead serious as I have been throughout this entire discussion unlike you and John.


Figures from the USA

57,000,000 doses of vaccine.

22,000 reported adverse effects.

Over 20,000 of those (92%) were non serious, e.g. redness or swelling at the injection site, a headache or feeling tired soon after the vaccine. But the majority of adverse reactions were reports of fainting or dizziness, which are relatively common side effects in teenage girls when they receive any sort of injection. As the HPV vaccine is primarily given to teenage girls, it was expected that there would be a higher than usual rate of reported faints. When that is taken into account the increased risk of fainting is about 2 episodes per 10,000,000 doses.

Contrast that with the 26,000 new cancers diagnosed every year that are attributed to HPV.


Your figure of 80 deaths is wrong. You have misunderstood the data.

A reported death following a vaccine does not mean that the vaccine caused the death. It means the death has been reported for investigation.

If someone dies soon after receiving a vaccine it should be reported (there is no legal time frame other than the standard 15 day report but typically deaths within 3 months of the vaccination date are reported, unless any other adverse reaction was also noted, in which case it's usually deaths within 1 year).

If you gave 57,000,000 people a glass of water, some of them would die within 3 months of drinking it, but that doesn't mean the water killed them.

There have been 140 reported deaths. They were caused by all sorts of factors including drug use, viral infection, heart defects, etc. As far as I am aware only 2 deaths have been confirmed as being probably caused by the vaccine, and they were allergic reactions. If you have some actual data or proof of others, please share it.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9785
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Causation vs correlation. Always an excellent point.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fallacy responsible for a good number of other superstitions: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL_vHDjG5Wk


Regads,
John
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now for a little comic relief:

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9785
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

It would be comical if it wasn't so tragically dangerous. There is no relief from this sort of ignorance. Just the release that comes from death.


With Communist greetings

Sasha
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not just ignorance; it's also deliberate misinformation:

http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/25/parents-you-are-being-lied-to/

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9785
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

What can I say? I'm an optimist, and I try to see the best in people. I prefer to see them as acting due to not knowing, rather than willfully wishing ill unto their fellow man. As soon as the latter becomes indisputable, with signed confessions etc. then it is off east they go, for some re-education. Just don't like my better nature being taken advantage of, you know?


With Communist greetings

Sasha
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Daveric



Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daveric wrote:
Actually, the vast majority of polio today occur in vaccinated individuals, i.e., they are iatrogenic (vaccine-induced). Here's just one example:

Mysterious polio-like illness found in five California children
Date: February 23, 2014
Source: American Academy of Neurology (AAN)
Summary:
Researchers have identified a polio-like syndrome in a cluster of children from California over a one-year period, according to a case report released. Polio is a contagious disease that sometimes caused paralysis. The United States experienced a polio epidemic in the 1950s, until a vaccine was introduced. The five children experienced paralysis of one or more arms or legs that came on suddenly and reached the height of its severity within two days of onset. Three of the children had a respiratory illness before the symptoms began. All of the children had been previously vaccinated against poliovirus. The children were treated but their symptoms did not improve and they still had poor limb function after six months.


In the latest outbreak of measles in New York, 90% occurred in children who had been vaccinated.
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The vast majority of outbreaks are in children who have been vaccinated because the vast majority of children in urban areas have been vaccinated.

If you read up a little on logical fallacies you will be less susceptible to this sort of error, and wouldn't find these things so scary.

Vaccines are not 100% effective, but they are still far far more effective than not vaccinating. Even when they haven't taken entirely, they usually confer some benefit, as evidenced by the rarity of deaths from measles in people who are vaccinated. Without vaccines measles outbreaks wouldn't even make the press because they would be so common

Finally, people who have been vaccinated can still be measles carriers, just like people who haven't been vaccinated can. Which is why the herd immunity figure is relatively high for measles (85%).
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9785
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, HLJHLJ. That is far too logical. Won't wash with the truthers...
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Daveric



Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Sorry, HLJHLJ. That is far too logical. Won't wash with the truthers...


So

Quote:
The vast majority of outbreaks are in children who have been vaccinated because the vast majority of children in urban areas have been vaccinated


is logical to you? Sure, it's perfectly logical that vaccinated people get the disease. Yeah, right.

Anyway, those who are interested can hear a discussion with Gary Null, Ph.D. as he talks with Dr. Christopher Shaw, professor of neuroscience at the University of British Columbia, Barbara Loe Fisher Co-Founder and President of the National Vaccine Information Center, Norma Erickson, the President of SaneVax and Suzanne Humphries, M.D. on the Dangers of the Gardasil Vaccine. Go to prn.fm and search for the Progressive Commentary Hour (or just click on link). If you don't catch it then, you can always hear it in the archives there. Gary Null's reports are always hard-hitting and backed up by peer-reviewed science, his guests are well credentialed, and they are very much worth listening to.
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 918

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daveric wrote:
Sashadroogie wrote:
Sorry, HLJHLJ. That is far too logical. Won't wash with the truthers...


So

Quote:
The vast majority of outbreaks are in children who have been vaccinated because the vast majority of children in urban areas have been vaccinated


is logical to you? Sure, it's perfectly logical that vaccinated people get the disease. Yeah, right.


Of course it is. Vaccines are not 100% effective, nobody claims that they are. A small proportion of people who are vaccinated will not become immune, and some will only be partially immune so they can still catch it in a mild form.

Measles is incredibly contagious and measles carriers are everywhere. When there is an outbreak most people who are susceptible and are exposed will catch it. That includes everyone who didn't fully respond to the the vaccine as well as those who are entirely unvaccinated.

It's really not that complicated.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Useless - but what the heck:

A few days ago, I wrote an article discussing how antivaccination trope inventors could not understand the most basic elements of mathematics in reading a vaccine label. They misinterpreted some simple math like that the toxic level of a substance is several million times higher than what is injected. I suppose in the minds of vaccine deniers, 1=1 billion. Or 1 trillion. Or 4783.2226. It just depends.

And if they can’t understand the simplest of math principles, assuming that they would understand population level statistics might be a really bad assumption.

Recently, I was pointed to an antivaccination article, on the Political Blindspot website, which is dedicated to finding news articles swept under the rug by mainstream media. My skeptical radar always goes into full energy mode whenever I see the word “mainstream.”

Basically, the article disputes the notion that vaccine exemptions have lead to outbreaks of measles in New York City and Orange County, CA by asking:

If the measles outbreaks in California, and particularly in and around Orange County, as well as New York City are because of non-vaccinators, then why aren’t we seeing outbreaks of everything not being vaccinated for? Why just measles and why all of a sudden, when the number of people opting out of vaccinations has actually steadily dropped in the last few years – after an initial wave of people not doing it?

To answer their questions, 1) because the vaccination rate is still high enough for most vaccine preventable diseases that the herd effect may still protect those who are not vaccinated; 2) Why measles? Because it is a highly infectious and contagious respiratory disease. Without oversimplifying it, the measles virus, because it is passed from one person to another through coughing or sneezing, if one person carries it, the virus seems to search for all of those individuals who are not immune. The disease spreads faster when there are pockets of unvaccinated individuals.

To back up their claim, Political Blindspot put up a graphic, from the CDC, as if that supported the contention that vaccine exemptions don’t lead to vaccine preventable disease outbreaks."

For more, please use the link below:

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/hey-vaccine-deniers-its-simple-math-part-deux/

Regards,
John
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12903
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this:

"During January 1–August 24, 2013, a total of 159 cases were reported to CDC from 16 states and New York City (Figure 2). Patients ranged in age from 0 days to 61 years; 18 (11%) were aged <12 months, 40 (25%) were aged 1–4 years, 58 (36%) were aged 5–19 years, and 43 (27%) were aged ≥20 years. Among the 159 cases, 17 (11%) persons required hospitalization, including four patients diagnosed with pneumonia. No deaths were reported.

Among the 159 cases, 157 (99%) were import-associated, and two had an unknown source. Forty-two (26%) importations (23 returning U.S residents and 19 visitors to the United States) from 18 countries were reported, and 21 (50%) of the importations were from the WHO European Region. Genotypes identified to date are D8 (47 cases), B3 (six), H1 (four), D9 (three), and D4 (two).

Most cases were in persons who were unvaccinated (131 [82%]) or had unknown vaccination status (15 [9%]). Thirteen (8%) of the patients had been vaccinated, of whom three had received 2 doses of measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. Among 140 U.S. residents who acquired measles, 117 (84%) were unvaccinated, and 11(8%) had unknown vaccination status. Of those who were unvaccinated, 92 (79%) had philosophical objections to vaccination, six (5%) had missed opportunities for vaccination, 15 (13%) occurred among infants aged <12 months who were not eligible for vaccination, and for four (3%) the reason for no vaccination was unknown (Figure 3). Among the 21 U.S resident patients who traveled abroad and were aged ≥6 months, 14 (67%) were unvaccinated, five (24%) had unknown vaccination status, and two had received 1 dose of MMR vaccine.

To date in 2013, eight outbreaks have accounted for 77% of the cases, and outbreaks have ranged from three to 58 cases. The largest outbreak occurred in New York City (4). None of these patients had documentation of vaccination at the time of exposure, including 12 (21%) who were aged <12 months. Of those who were eligible for vaccination, 31 (67%) had objected or had parental objection to vaccination because of religious or philosophical beliefs (4). The second largest outbreak, in North Carolina (23 cases, including a California resident), occurred mainly among persons not vaccinated because of personal belief exemptions (5). In an ongoing outbreak in Texas, 20 confirmed cases have been reported as of August 24 among members of a church community. Nineteen (95%) cases were in patients aged >12 months, and 17 (85%) of the patients were unvaccinated. The index patient was an adult with unknown measles vaccination history who traveled to Indonesia."

For more, please use the link below:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a2.htm

Not sure why I bother, though. Some people are impervious to facts.

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9785
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and logic. But full marks for sheer persistence.
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