Job Discussion Forums

[LongShiKong]

[RustyShackleford]

My boss is a foreign PhD with years of experience in a few countries and provides me with excellent support and ideas. I do agree that the accountability can be limited, but we do rigorous placement testing, and my classes average on 15-20 students with my smallest being 7 and my largest being 29.

I find myself in a far more favorable position than in Japan where almost every single idea I had was shot down with "Oh but it's too difficult for the students." Here, I am encouraged and required to push, and I bloody love it.

[LongShiKong]

[Dekadan]

Wow, RustyShackleford, pretty impressive. You really hit the ground running there! Congratulations!

I realize that you're giving advice on how to handle Vietnam cheaply as well as informing everyone of your progress, but there is one thing that I would respectfully disagree with: motorcycles. You suggested that other new people get one right away to save money. The traffic is a different beast in Vietnam, especially the big cities. Perhaps you took to it with an affinity, but I would suggest someone find a regular, reliable xe om driver to get a feel for how things work first. I knew too many people that had crashes and I had too many close encounters on the streets there to recommend anyone get a motorcycle right off the bat there. That is not something that people should try to save money on, you've only got one life, don't underestimate the traffic there!

Otherwise, everything else is incredible and I wish you the best of luck for your time in Vietnam!

[RustyShackleford]

Thanks and you're right - it IS important to go on a few ride-alongs to get a feeling for how traffic works, potential pitfalls etc. I rode a bicycle in Japan in traffic A LOT so, once I figured that the moto was basically just a really big, faster and potentially more lethal bicycle, it was cake.

I just got fed up with the xe om driver provided by my landlord a) not being able to speak English, and b) the driver not coming on time when I had a split-shift at another language center campus 15 minutes away and my break between classes was only like 30 minutes, thus arriving 20 minutes late.

The next day, I asked my driver to take me to a rental place, gave him five times the asked-for fee as a token of gratitude, rented a moto and never looked back.

[RustyShackleford]

Update: Received Working Permit/Temporary Resident card after signing contract in September with no problems after proper paperwork.

With the new regulations that came into effect in November, keep in mind your story may vary from my own. For now, I'm happy and consider myself blessed that I had such a smooth landing without much of the jerking around I hear too much about.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

Well done Rusty and thank you for a very interesting and helpful thread.

[LongShiKong]

[mk87]

They basically changed the WP rules to say that to get a WP you must have employment before you arrive in the country (no more tourist visa and then converting) However I dont really think they have been able to do it even now. Its meant that costs of Visa extensions have gone up by the sounds of it - but some of the bigger schools deal with that for the staff so it's not really hit me.

I think its worth understanding what "law" really is here though. By that I'm not being cynical and just saying you can get what you need if you have the money, I'm saying that often laws are brought in for other reasons than their direct implementation being something that is actually desired. (I realise that sounds a little esoteric, but I don't want to turn this into a cliche discussion on the vietnamese legal system.

[LongShiKong]

Their embassy alone gives me the impression they're a law unto themselves. I found it incredible that a convenient Visa on Arrival would be cheaper than an embassy-issued one.

[mk87]

I don't think that's really it. I mean I think it makes sense that VOAs are cheaper. I suspect entry from China has its own "issues" due to the situation. In terms of the law comment I think its more to do with a statement of intent on the future of WP's rather than an actual law that will be enforced strongly. If you know how VNese legislation works they seem to bring laws in in waves, the Helmet law is a prime example, as is the soft movement towards foreigners being able to own land.

[RustyShackleford]

So, after a year and two months in Vietnam, the saga of this newbie is coming to a close. I sit here today in my office for the last day, finishing up my contract before preparing for a few weeks of freedom before jetting off someplace else.

Here are some general impressions and reflections I have from my time here:

* I worked the majority of my time in an international college for 18+ students. Students ranged from very highly skilled to barely able to get a word out even after massive coaxing. This is a massive problem recognized by the school. Before that, I worked at a major language center which I have named in other posts but, for a veneer of ambiguity, will leave alone here. Overall, I rate my experience a positive one.

* The community of part-time expat teachers in Vietnam have had the unfortunate tendency to embody the absolute worst stereotypes of expats living abroad. I realize that this doesn't come from nowhere and is definitely amplified by the decidedly more stressful lifestyle in Vietnam, but that is my unfortunate judgement and one that I didn't intend on coming upon. Younger guys/gals are marginally better but some of the old types (not all, but...). I put at the top because I need to be open about my opinions to give some perspective on where the rest of this will be coming from.

That said, more than a few of them had some interesting anecdotes and I could think of worse company over a beer, except for the one who threatened my life at knife-point.

* Conversely, the community of Vietnamese English teachers was surprisingly good, full of talented, dedicated and fluent individuals who really taught me a lot about upping my game. Good folks who really took care of me.

* This is the complete inverse of the situation in Japan, where it seemed like Japanese English teachers struggled to get a single sentence out whereas the foreigners, while inexperienced in methodology and sometimes clueless, were at least willing to give it a sincere "Go," at least in the beginning. From my perspective, younger teachers were much more like this while older ones were dealing with bucketloads of cynicism. That's okay - I read these forums and I see where that sentiment can come from.

* Management in the college had a veneer of professionalism and organization but often seemed to be backed by a lack of funds. Resources were limited and I had to resort to really expanding my usual tricks and not being able to rely on everything except paper and a printer being handy unlike my time in Japanese public schools, where it seemed you could ALWAYS get art supplies, colored paper, etc. etc. Payment was on time for the first few months and then became as much as a week late. Despite frequent protestations to accounting and such, it was only towards my last two months that the company finally got its bloody act together.

* Getting a work permit wasn't as much of a hassle as people seem to crack it up to be - I got my documents (degree, TEFL, etc) notarized in-country at the US Consulate and then the guys at my employment processed with my WP coming in a couple months later. To be honest, it's been a far greater pain dealing with my current EU visa! Keep in mind that I got my WP before the recent visa reforms.

* In the classroom I was given enormous freedom to do pretty much whatever I wished so long as it met the course outlines. Observations were done to keep things focused on target and students also were surprisingly willing to speak their minds.

* On the other hand, this freedom probably came partially from the above-mentioned disorganization. Also, there was a nasty habit on part of the administration to "push up" students who had even failed the class to keep enrollment numbers up, which posed a challenge for myself and my fellow teachers, but we trucked on.

* Someone once confided in me that "This country just takes and takes, it never gives." I have to feel some agreement with this sentiment as, on a full-time salaried contract, I found myself waking up at 6am to walk into the office at 7am to prep, teaching from 8am to 11:30am with a break til 1pm followed by other teachers doing more classes until 4pm sometimes followed by after-hours lab work going til 6:30-7pm!

To be fair, for the 1pm-4pm block I was NOT assigned any class, and I was given tremendous leeway in getting things outside of work done. Still, the majority of the time I was preparing things for next days classes or grading assignments/answering e-mails from students and staff til 6pm on more than one night. I am glad I did it as it built character and experience but I do wish that I could have less demand on my schedule!

* I leave the job on a high note with my American supervisor and Vietnamese regulatory staff with some even requesting that I stay! (Perhaps predictable, given how high turnover is due to the majority of the jobs offered here being part-time - peanuts, monkeys, etc.)

* That said, to anybody wishing to teach in Vietnam, time management is an absolute MUST to not go crazy.

Anybody feel free to address anything I write and I also wish to hear the other side of some comments which may come off as inflammatory. If anyone has some specific questions about salary, student numbers, etc, I can also gladly answer through a PM.

[ExpatLuke]

I'd say that's a pretty good write up. It sounds quite similar to my first year in Vietnam. All I can say towards that is things do usually get better if you stick it out for longer than a year. You can find better schools or even cities to work at. You can get rid of the split shifts. You find your niche.

It sounds like you're a fairly flexible guy, which is what you need to be to succeed here. Best of luck to you in continuing your education in Spain!

[Dave_1]

you did well Rusty but IMO arriving with 1000 USD and no job is akin to playing with fire....there is a great deal of luck involved n getting a decent gig. I wouldn't touch Vietnam with less than 5000 usd savings regardless of job offer or no job on arrival

[mark_in_saigon]

I would like to agree with the 5,000 figure (well, I DO agree with it), but the fact is, most of the folks just flat out aint got it. No amount of advice or wishing is gonna change it. Most of these people are young, and how many young people have 5 grand stashed up in their western lives? So why would people who are often leaving the west due to poor opportunity have more in reserve than the ones who have jobs? These are tough times for the masses, just a few are doing well now. I think times are getting tougher, actually.

The bad thing is, this crush of people who are more or less desperate for work changes the hiring dynamic. While a true professional is hard to find, the majority of the schools do not care about that, and usually reject professionals anyway, as they have high standards which the employers will not respect. Just a few first rate teachers are sought after (despite the lip service given), fortunately the supply and demand does not seem too out of whack in that very small world. But for the majority of jobs, employers likely prefer this desperation among the masses.

We see the same deal with high caliber VN graduates, along with the masses of graduates that are just part of the crowd. Query the promotional girls in COOP Mart. What is your degree in? Almost all these girls wearing a Colgate uniform and stocking toothbrushes (or whatever) are degreed. While I do think there are some very compelling reasons for us to be here, I think teaching is becoming less and less one of them.