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HK vs China earning potential
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Kowloon



Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

GHL wrote:
Kowloon wrote:
GHL wrote:


No, you don't need a home country PGCE, but if you get the PGDE your bit of paper is only good for the NET scheme in HK. A scheme for which there's a low turnover rate and stiff competition to be hired. An international school in HK would want a PGCE + experience.

Essentially the PGDE is quite a risky option. You're investing lots of money and time into something that only makes you qualified for a few select jobs.

Especially if you're in one of the aforementioned entry level jobs. As is 42,000HKD for the PGDE for that matter. It's a cost that is beyond the reach of many because of other commitments. Not everyone is single, enjoys living in a house share and eating noodles every night. Some have other responsibilities or hell, just simply aren't willing to compromise on the basic things in life such as your own apartment and 3 decent meals a day. And why should they?


...erm. To give them themselves a better chance of getting on the scheme? If wages have, and continue to, stagnated in these entry level jobs, and the person working them can already just afford their place to live and three square meals...how are they expected to move up and out of that without further qualifications. Where will they live and what will they eat 5 or 10 years from now? Trust me, having to endure such harships (and like I stated, fewer holidays abroad and a few less mad nights out would do the trick) is easier when you're young than when you're older.

I think we're just coming from completely different life perspectives. I agree the system is imperfect (and that is being polite!). However, I'd rather work within it to try and have the best career I can in this field. For me, that meant improving my qualifications while I worked. I made some minor sacrifices, but nothing I really missed. It has paid off big time and I'm thankful for that. If I stay on the scheme for 3 contracts I will save enough money to set me up for my retirement (I won't be able to retire at that stage, but I will have put away enough to set up the serious money, have couple of properties back home etc.)

I want to stress to everyone else reading this: GHL and CEB are dramatically overstating the level of competition for getting a job on the NET scheme. Don't be discouraged, it can be done. Dozens of new teachers are added each year, and frankly there are no where near as many quality candidates as people think.


Sharing flats and eating noodles is for college students. I certainly wouldn't do it, especially not when there's only 30 jobs a year on the NET scheme, with like 1000 people in the EDB pool. It's not like you're guaranteed a place on the scheme with your PGDE. In fact, you're much more likely NOT to get on the scheme - just look at all the many people in the pool who never even get interviews, let alone jobs!

Not to mention, all it takes is the HK government to drop the NET scheme, and your PGDE is kinda worthless. It's no good for proper international schools and it's not like a language centre is going to pay you much more for having one. The PGDE gets you access to a very niche set of jobs. It's clearly worked out for you and that's great, but there's a lot more it won't have worked out for.

I actually think you're better off enduring hardships when older than younger. Your younger years are the best of your life when you're in the greatest health. Don't waste them suffering for some 'future' that may or may not come to pass. Go on those holidays abroad. Hit the town and get drunk with your mates. The time for suffering is in your 40s and 50s. Don't waste your youth working like a dog to save money.


You're making a big claim there without any evidence to back it up (the two parts in bold). I provided plenty of anecdotal evidence on the previous page to support by claim that it's not as competitive as you're making out. If someone gains a PGDE at HKU or HKIE, and doesn't get on/isn't already on the scheme by the time it's finished then there is likely another story and I'd be questioning how they behave in interviews. I honestly don't know of anyone with the qualification who isn't working on the scheme (unless by choice), and I know about a dozen people without the qualification already working on the scheme.

I agree that it wouldn't help get a job back home or in an international school with the PGDE, if that is the long term goal people should avoid it. However, it doesn't necessarily mean it will have be "worthless". I'm married, we generally save one salary. The difference in volume of savings between what I would have saved, to what I will save, even if the scheme only lasts another 2-3 years is exponential and absolutely dwarfs what was spent on the qualification.

As for the underlined part. Mate, that is terrible advice and you know it*. Can't you see the irony in you scoffing at people cutting back for "living like students" while you boast about going out on the lash? You don't need to be going out and getting pissed every weekend to have a good lifestyle. Everything in moderation. What are you going to do when you're in your 40s, have no extra qualifications, and only 10-15 years experience in language centres? Surely you don't want to end up like one of those saddos on the general forum, moaning about the lack of opportunities and going back home to stack shelves?

*If you're under 25 then fair enough, I was much the same then.
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Jmbf



Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

Kowloon wrote:
I agree that it wouldn't help get a job back home or in an international school with the PGDE, if that is the long term goal people should avoid it. However, it doesn't necessarily mean it will have be "worthless". I'm married, we generally save one salary. The difference in volume of savings between what I would have saved, to what I will save, even if the scheme only lasts another 2-3 years is exponential and absolutely dwarfs what was spent on the qualification.


I agree. Even disregarding the EDB NET scheme, the PGDE makes you more attractive and marketable to local employers. Some local schools have non EDB NET positions available and are willing to salary-match their teaching positions to the scheme for the right candidate. At language centres, it will allow you to command a higher salary. As a tutor, having a PGDE makes you more attractive to parents and enables you to charge more. The benefits are multiple and in most cases far outweigh the initial course cost.

Kowloon wrote:
As for the underlined part. Mate, that is terrible advice and you know it*. Can't you see the irony in you scoffing at people cutting back for "living like students" while you boast about going out on the lash? You don't need to be going out and getting pissed every weekend to have a good lifestyle. Everything in moderation. What are you going to do when you're in your 40s, have no extra qualifications, and only 10-15 years experience in language centres? Surely you don't want to end up like one of those saddos on the general forum, moaning about the lack of opportunities and going back home to stack shelves?

*If you're under 25 then fair enough, I was much the same then.


+1. Everything in moderation. Just because you are working 20-25 teaching hours a week doesn't have to mean you are working yourself to death or have no room for anything else in your life. Plenty of people have a decent work / life balance with that kind of workload. I think that instead of just looking at short-term gratification, it would be wise to think longer-term towards the future.
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GHL



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

Kowloon wrote:
GHL wrote:
Kowloon wrote:
GHL wrote:


No, you don't need a home country PGCE, but if you get the PGDE your bit of paper is only good for the NET scheme in HK. A scheme for which there's a low turnover rate and stiff competition to be hired. An international school in HK would want a PGCE + experience.

Essentially the PGDE is quite a risky option. You're investing lots of money and time into something that only makes you qualified for a few select jobs.

Especially if you're in one of the aforementioned entry level jobs. As is 42,000HKD for the PGDE for that matter. It's a cost that is beyond the reach of many because of other commitments. Not everyone is single, enjoys living in a house share and eating noodles every night. Some have other responsibilities or hell, just simply aren't willing to compromise on the basic things in life such as your own apartment and 3 decent meals a day. And why should they?


...erm. To give them themselves a better chance of getting on the scheme? If wages have, and continue to, stagnated in these entry level jobs, and the person working them can already just afford their place to live and three square meals...how are they expected to move up and out of that without further qualifications. Where will they live and what will they eat 5 or 10 years from now? Trust me, having to endure such harships (and like I stated, fewer holidays abroad and a few less mad nights out would do the trick) is easier when you're young than when you're older.

I think we're just coming from completely different life perspectives. I agree the system is imperfect (and that is being polite!). However, I'd rather work within it to try and have the best career I can in this field. For me, that meant improving my qualifications while I worked. I made some minor sacrifices, but nothing I really missed. It has paid off big time and I'm thankful for that. If I stay on the scheme for 3 contracts I will save enough money to set me up for my retirement (I won't be able to retire at that stage, but I will have put away enough to set up the serious money, have couple of properties back home etc.)

I want to stress to everyone else reading this: GHL and CEB are dramatically overstating the level of competition for getting a job on the NET scheme. Don't be discouraged, it can be done. Dozens of new teachers are added each year, and frankly there are no where near as many quality candidates as people think.


Sharing flats and eating noodles is for college students. I certainly wouldn't do it, especially not when there's only 30 jobs a year on the NET scheme, with like 1000 people in the EDB pool. It's not like you're guaranteed a place on the scheme with your PGDE. In fact, you're much more likely NOT to get on the scheme - just look at all the many people in the pool who never even get interviews, let alone jobs!

Not to mention, all it takes is the HK government to drop the NET scheme, and your PGDE is kinda worthless. It's no good for proper international schools and it's not like a language centre is going to pay you much more for having one. The PGDE gets you access to a very niche set of jobs. It's clearly worked out for you and that's great, but there's a lot more it won't have worked out for.

I actually think you're better off enduring hardships when older than younger. Your younger years are the best of your life when you're in the greatest health. Don't waste them suffering for some 'future' that may or may not come to pass. Go on those holidays abroad. Hit the town and get drunk with your mates. The time for suffering is in your 40s and 50s. Don't waste your youth working like a dog to save money.


You're making a big claim there without any evidence to back it up (the two parts in bold). I provided plenty of anecdotal evidence on the previous page to support by claim that it's not as competitive as you're making out. If someone gains a PGDE at HKU or HKIE, and doesn't get on/isn't already on the scheme by the time it's finished then there is likely another story and I'd be questioning how they behave in interviews. I honestly don't know of anyone with the qualification who isn't working on the scheme (unless by choice), and I know about a dozen people without the qualification already working on the scheme.

I agree that it wouldn't help get a job back home or in an international school with the PGDE, if that is the long term goal people should avoid it. However, it doesn't necessarily mean it will have be "worthless". I'm married, we generally save one salary. The difference in volume of savings between what I would have saved, to what I will save, even if the scheme only lasts another 2-3 years is exponential and absolutely dwarfs what was spent on the qualification.

As for the underlined part. Mate, that is terrible advice and you know it*. Can't you see the irony in you scoffing at people cutting back for "living like students" while you boast about going out on the lash? You don't need to be going out and getting pissed every weekend to have a good lifestyle. Everything in moderation. What are you going to do when you're in your 40s, have no extra qualifications, and only 10-15 years experience in language centres? Surely you don't want to end up like one of those saddos on the general forum, moaning about the lack of opportunities and going back home to stack shelves?

*If you're under 25 then fair enough, I was much the same then.


Well anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. It's a well known fact that there's a lot more people in the NET pool than there are jobs available. And so it follows that most people who apply for these jobs do not get them.

I don't think it's terrible advice telling people to enjoy their youth. Your 20s and 30s should be the best years of your life, as that's when you're in the greatest health. I've no desire to burn through all those years working like a dog to save money, just so I can afford the best medical care and live in a nicer house when the sun of life is setting. I'm not saying life is over at 40 or anything like that, but if there's any years you should be sacrificing to build a retirement fund, it's those years, not your best years.

Jmbf wrote:
+1. Everything in moderation. Just because you are working 20-25 teaching hours a week doesn't have to mean you are working yourself to death or have no room for anything else in your life. Plenty of people have a decent work / life balance with that kind of workload. I think that instead of just looking at short-term gratification, it would be wise to think longer-term towards the future.


25 teaching hours a week won't mean your life sucks. No, what will make your life suck is not being able to go on holiday or go for any nights out, alongside living in shared accommodation and eating 3 packs of noodles a day just so you can afford a PGDE which may or may not get you onto the NET scheme.
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5921
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

GHL wrote:
I don't think it's terrible advice telling people to enjoy their youth. Your 20s and 30s should be the best years of your life, as that's when you're in the greatest health. I've no desire to burn through all those years working like a dog to save money, just so I can afford the best medical care and live in a nicer house when the sun of life is setting. I'm not saying life is over at 40 or anything like that, but if there's any years you should be sacrificing to build a retirement fund, it's those years, not your best years.

I'm afraid that if you wait till you're in your 40s to start contributing to some form of company pension/retirement savings you're just not going to make it.
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GHL



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

7969 wrote:
GHL wrote:
I don't think it's terrible advice telling people to enjoy their youth. Your 20s and 30s should be the best years of your life, as that's when you're in the greatest health. I've no desire to burn through all those years working like a dog to save money, just so I can afford the best medical care and live in a nicer house when the sun of life is setting. I'm not saying life is over at 40 or anything like that, but if there's any years you should be sacrificing to build a retirement fund, it's those years, not your best years.

I'm afraid that if you wait till you're in your 40s to start contributing to some form of company pension/retirement savings you're just not going to make it.


Then so be it. Suffering when you're older is better than suffering when you're younger, since your younger years are your best years.
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Jmbf



Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

GHL wrote:
25 teaching hours a week won't mean your life sucks. No, what will make your life suck is not being able to go on holiday or go for any nights out, alongside living in shared accommodation and eating 3 packs of noodles a day just so you can afford a PGDE which may or may not get you onto the NET scheme.


But you've contradicted yourself. From your own quote earlier on in this thread:

GHL wrote:
Accomodation: 10,000HKD for a studio apartment. Non-shared of course, like is standard in every other ESL destination on Earth.
Food: 4,000HKD
Transport: 1,000HKD
Entertainment: 4,000HKD
Vacations: Let's say 48,000 for 4 weeks, which amortises to 4,000HKD a month.

So, 10k+4k+1k+4k+4k = 23k a month is needed for a reasonable lifestyle. Factor in that we have some taxes to pay, and the overall amount needed for a decent life (with no savings) stands at around 25k a month.


So you have admitted that you could have a 'reasonable lifestyle' for 23-25K. Now it just so happens that 23-25K is easily in the range of language centre pay. Add on just a couple of private students and that would easily get you to 30K. Within that budget you have plenty of money for non-shared accommodation, decent food, entertainment, savings for holidays AND putting some money aside for a PGDE.
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GHL



Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

Jmbf wrote:
GHL wrote:
25 teaching hours a week won't mean your life sucks. No, what will make your life suck is not being able to go on holiday or go for any nights out, alongside living in shared accommodation and eating 3 packs of noodles a day just so you can afford a PGDE which may or may not get you onto the NET scheme.


But you've contradicted yourself. From your own quote earlier on in this thread:

GHL wrote:
Accomodation: 10,000HKD for a studio apartment. Non-shared of course, like is standard in every other ESL destination on Earth.
Food: 4,000HKD
Transport: 1,000HKD
Entertainment: 4,000HKD
Vacations: Let's say 48,000 for 4 weeks, which amortises to 4,000HKD a month.

So, 10k+4k+1k+4k+4k = 23k a month is needed for a reasonable lifestyle. Factor in that we have some taxes to pay, and the overall amount needed for a decent life (with no savings) stands at around 25k a month.


So you have admitted that you could have a 'reasonable lifestyle' for 23-25K. Now it just so happens that 23-25K is easily in the range of language centre pay. Add on just a couple of private students and that would easily get you to 30K. Within that budget you have plenty of money for non-shared accommodation, decent food, entertainment, savings for holidays AND putting some money aside for a PGDE.


So now we're adding in 3 hours of privates a week (assuming 12 hours a month gets you around 5,000, keeping in mind they'll be times when your students are on holiday, sick etc) on top of whatever work is required for the PGDE.

Bearing in mind language centres in Hong Kong tend to require more hours than other language centres in other countries (i.e. you'll be doing a 40 hour week, at minimum, and a lot of these places want you to work 6 days a week) this is no small amount of work. Let's say 40 hours at your main job, 3 hours privates, plus I dunno...7 hours a week spent on your PGDE? All of a sudden we're looking at a 50 hour week, and it's not like HK language centres give lots of vacation time either.

I could maybe see it working if you were an ELTA in a public school, since at least then you get longer vacations to relax. But 50 hours a week is still 50 frickin hours a week. We're talking about a whole heap of work here.

Is language centre work even allowed to be counted for the PGDE? Or do you need to be observed teaching in a public school? If so this plan would be dead in the water before it even began, since no language centre is going to pay your wages while you go teach in a public school for weeks at a time.

But even if it can be counted....it's still 50 hours a week. 50 hours.
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Kowloon



Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

GHL wrote:

1. Well anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. It's a well known fact that there's a lot more people in the NET pool than there are jobs available. And so it follows that most people who apply for these jobs do not get them.

2. I don't think it's terrible advice telling people to enjoy their youth. Your 20s and 30s should be the best years of your life, as that's when you're in the greatest health. I've no desire to burn through all those years working like a dog to save money, just so I can afford the best medical care and live in a nicer house when the sun of life is setting. I'm not saying life is over at 40 or anything like that, but if there's any years you should be sacrificing to build a retirement fund, it's those years, not your best years.



1. You're parsing your words now. You claimed that most people who get a PGDE won't have things work out for them:

" The PGDE gets you access to a very niche set of jobs. It's clearly worked out for you and that's great, but there's a lot more it won't have worked out for. "

I'm only providing anecdotal evidence, because there isn't any official data on how many PGDE graduates go onto the NET scheme, and how many wanted to, but couldn't. You're providing no evidence to support your claim.

2. Regarding the 'enjoy your youth' narrative you are now being deliberately obtuse by reducing everything to an all or nothing equation. It does not follow that people who make minor sacrifices must therefor be living on Ramen and flat sharing. I have explained that about four times. I'm not going to reveal too much PI on here, as the forums are open, but I have had a great lifestyle throughout my 20s, am now in my early 30s and it's even better.

Was there the occasional weekend where I wouldn't go out to work on an assignment? Yes. Perhaps four times a year. Did I cut down on takeaways and cook from home more? Yeah. Do I have some areas where I spend a lot less than others? Yeah, electronics. Not techy at all. I don't have a TV, my laptop is basic, and I run a cheap smartphone for whatsapp only really. All by choice.

Newsflash mate, as I sense you are pretty young, as you and your friends get older everyone starts missing occasional nights out, eats out a bit less, starts taking up 'healthier' or 'more productive' hobbies. It's called growing up. Easy to be full of bravado when you're just starting out, but trust me, you don't want to be 'the last lad left behind'.

Now, on the figures you posted earlier there was plenty of room for people to dedicate a bit towards improving their qualifications without having to live on the breadline, if that is what they would like to do, if they don't then that's their choice. Remember, you said you felt 35k was the ideal amount for a single person to be aiming for. I broadly agree (I'd maybe go a bit lower, 30-32k would be just about ok I think). On that amount there is plenty left over to both save and upgrade the CV.
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Jmbf



Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 549

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

GHL wrote:
Bearing in mind language centres in Hong Kong tend to require more hours than other language centres in other countries (i.e. you'll be doing a 40 hour week, at minimum, and a lot of these places want you to work 6 days a week) this is no small amount of work. Let's say 40 hours at your main job, 3 hours privates, plus I dunno...7 hours a week spent on your PGDE? All of a sudden we're looking at a 50 hour week, and it's not like HK language centres give lots of vacation time either.


Sorry but you're shifting the goalposts. First it was life would suck because of not going out etc etc and now it's because of the number of working hours. And BTW I don't know where you got the min 40 working hours figure from. Yes, some jobs require 40 hours (or more) but it's not a uniform standard. There are plenty of jobs available with fewer hours. A friend of mine works 20 hours a week for 33K. Granted, his job before that was a much more standard 35 hours BUT even that was less than the 40 hours you state is the minimum. More importantly, if you only look at a snapshot picture of the situation without considering the growth potential, then you miss out on so many opportunities.

Oh, and tell me, where in world can you hold down a normal full-time job AND study for a degree at the same time AND still have lots of free time leftover? It doesn't exist. In this type of situation you are going to be working HARD wherever you are in the world. Suck it up for a year, improve your qualifications and move on up in the world. It's not rocket science and it's not a huge sacrifice in the overall scheme of things.
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Kowloon



Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The irony as well is that, in TEFL, you will actually reduce your work load as you increase your salary.

I used to work my butt off for 25k a month at a language centre for about 15 days holiday! In Korea it wad 2.2m won and 10 days holiday. Now I have about 10 weeks off a year and a much more manageable work load! Laughing
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yurii



Joined: 12 Jan 2017
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... Reply with quote

GHL wrote:
I actually think you're better off enduring hardships when older than younger. Your younger years are the best of your life when you're in the greatest health. Don't waste them suffering for some 'future' that may or may not come to pass. Go on those holidays abroad. Hit the town and get drunk with your mates. The time for suffering is in your 40s and 50s. Don't waste your youth working like a dog to save money.



Quite worrying you're already thinking about the hardships you'll face when you're older with little savings. Also, regarding going out and getting drunk, some people might not mind sitting at home relaxing, cooking with friends, being alone watching a movie etc. Not everyone is into going to pubs/nightclubs and getting smashed.


GHL wrote:

25 teaching hours a week won't mean your life sucks. No, what will make your life suck is not being able to go on holiday or go for any nights out, alongside living in shared accommodation and eating 3 packs of noodles a day just so you can afford a PGDE which may or may not get you onto the NET scheme.


GHL wrote:


Sharing flats and eating noodles is for college students. I certainly wouldn't do it, especially not when there's only 30 jobs a year on the NET scheme, with like 1000 people in the EDB pool. It's not like you're guaranteed a place on the scheme with your PGDE. In fact, you're much more likely NOT to get on the scheme - just look at all the many people in the pool who never even get interviews, let alone jobs!



I think you're exaggerating a bit on the noodles comments! I mean just because you want to save a little doesn't mean you're eating rubbish/bad quality food each night. I can make a delicious pasta meal that doesn't cost a lot and can be very tasty/healthy. It's not a cheap packet of chicken or curry flavour instant noodles overloaded with salt every night. There are several ways to make a decent meal without spending too much money if you know how. Also, as far as I'm aware HK is relatively cheap for restaurants (compared to the UK at least) so I imagine supermarkets are better than the UK price wise.

Shared accommodation is subjective: some don't like living alone and/or feel lonely so it's not a simple case of everyone prefers to have their own apartment.

Also, as for the interview I think you're also looking worst case scenarios to back up your point (same with your noodles/PGCE comment). Not everyone is going to live so far away that they can't attend an interview. E.g. if you work in China/Taiwan you could attend an interview in HK and it won't cost that much, or if you're in Europe it's not going to cost the earth to fly to London and stay over one night to go to the interview there.
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