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Hanshan Normal University - School Review
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bestteacher2012



Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon in Suzhou wrote:
bestteacher2012 wrote:
I will guess one of the reasons this uni struggles to attract applicants is because of being located in Guangdong province. Not only does Guangdong have some of toughest requirements in regards to Z visas, but also teachers cannot get their visas from Hong Kong. These two factors reduce the number of foreigners willing to consider this university significantly.


Nah, I doubt this is the case. Guangzhou is one of the most competitive markets for teachers. There are PLENTY of QUALIFIED teachers in the province. No need to grab tourists/backpackers, etc. More likely it's just too far from Guangzhou or Shenzhen where 90% of the foreign teachers want to be. Seems like a good job and the kind of quiet place I would enjoy living.


The school is in Chaozhou, not Guangzhou.....not really a first choice city for most foreigners. Add in the strict requirements, it's easy to see why the school struggles to attract anyone.
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bestteacher2012



Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denim-Maniac wrote:
bestteacher2012 wrote:
I will guess one of the reasons this uni struggles to attract applicants is because of being located in Guangdong province. Not only does Guangdong have some of toughest requirements in regards to Z visas, but also teachers cannot get their visas from Hong Kong. These two factors reduce the number of foreigners willing to consider this university significantly.


I wouldnt have thought this is true.

Most people would prefer to enter the country on a Z visa, or if they are in-country, like to be sure they will be provided with the correct paperwork. And as far as I know, the toughest requirements are still just a passport from an English speaking country, an undergraduate degree and two-years experience. Not a great ask TBH.


It is a great ask when they are offering peanuts and expecting qualified teachers to put in over 20 hours a week (if they do their job properly). Anyone from an English speaking country, that has a degree and 2 years teaching experience could make more money in most other countries.

Actually this offer is not that good considering teachers are teaching writing classes, factor in the marking and preparation, the salary doesn't look so good then.
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bestteacher2012 wrote:
Denim-Maniac wrote:
bestteacher2012 wrote:
I will guess one of the reasons this uni struggles to attract applicants is because of being located in Guangdong province. Not only does Guangdong have some of toughest requirements in regards to Z visas, but also teachers cannot get their visas from Hong Kong. These two factors reduce the number of foreigners willing to consider this university significantly.


I wouldnt have thought this is true.

Most people would prefer to enter the country on a Z visa, or if they are in-country, like to be sure they will be provided with the correct paperwork. And as far as I know, the toughest requirements are still just a passport from an English speaking country, an undergraduate degree and two-years experience. Not a great ask TBH.


It is a great ask when they are offering peanuts and expecting qualified teachers to put in over 20 hours a week (if they do their job properly). Anyone from an English speaking country, that has a degree and 2 years teaching experience could make more money in most other countries.

Actually this offer is not that good considering teachers are teaching writing classes, factor in the marking and preparation, the salary doesn't look so good then.

We all have different aptitudes and personally I'd find an oral English class more difficult and stressful, and that's why I've been teaching the writing class for the past six years. The key to teaching a writing class is to work smarter, not harder. The first year or two were rough because I had nothing to follow and had to start from scratch, but by the third year I had enough material to last two full terms. Some of the things that make your life easier . . . I use a multi-media room and .ppt files, preparing, updating and making minor changes to a lesson is very easy and takes no time at all. Homework - in the first couple of years students did homework in their notebooks and I carried stacks of them home every week and checked them. Not very efficient. Today most writing assignments are done on handouts that I've already prepared and printed off, and the students complete and mark them in class. I take the papers home, input the scores into an Excel file, randomly check a few of them to make sure the marking is fair, and return them the following week. In the beginning I was skeptical using the honour system for marking but my random checks have shown me they're honest about it. The only time I have to take homework back to my place is when they write a five paragraph essay. I actually read all of them and give a score according to the rubric I use. This takes some time but they only write one essay in the second term in preparation for the TEM4, and it's part of the job. The students also have my email address and every now and then a few of the keeners email me some written work they've prepared and I check those, but I only get one or two a week, and it takes all of 30-40 minutes (that's voluntary on my part). So my extra work is limited to recording marks, printing off handouts now and then, and once in the second term reading and correcting the short essays. The other writing teacher doesn't assign homework as far as I know and his workload seems limited to the classroom. So how much you work or don't work is really up to you but the students are perceptive enough to know if you have a genuine interest in helping them, or if you're more interested in disappearing once the bell rings. For some teachers that perception matters, for others it doesn't.

There were a couple of good threads in the past on teaching writing on this forum. I dug up one of them:

Teaching English Writing

In that thread I pretty much said the same thing I've said here: plan, prepare, and execute. If you're organized your workload isn't a lot more than anyone else.

Regarding what this school offers, even if you were only talking strictly about the salary, this school pays more than most. Take out the built in airfare and my salary is still about 6000-6500 for 12-16 hours per week. I scan the job boards every now and then and not many universities paying that much. It's not huge money obviously but it's fair. You said you can make more money in most other countries. You can, but in other countries (Korea, at a hagwon) you work 30 hours a week instead of 14. Some countries that pay more don't offer free apartments (Japan), and you have to spend 25% or more of your salary on a flat. The countries and jobs that offer the best benefits are also the ones that require people to hold relevant qualifications (the garden variety BA that works in Japan, Korea and China won't cut it in those places). One of the more subtle benefits a place like Hanshan offers, which you may have overlooked, is that they're not likely to screw you over and they'll treat you well.

A point I neglected to mention in my review, you'll get about five months of paid holiday at this school each year (only three if you don't stay more than one year). Today is the last day of my winter vacation, which started on 2 January. This isn't unique to Hanshan but how many other countries are offering that?
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JZer



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7969 wrote:
Zhejiang_Man wrote:
Quote:
I spend most of my free time during the school year here either at work, in my flat, or taking a weekend jaunt to Hong Kong


How long does it take you to get to Hong Kong? Chaozhou is 6 hours by train to Guangzhou and then another 2 hours?

4.5 hours to Shenzhen by bus, a half hour or so to cross the border, then another 45 minutes on the train into HK. Six and a half hours in total. I never use the train here, the service is too slow and infrequent.


How does one apply to the this university?
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JZer wrote:
7969 wrote:
Zhejiang_Man wrote:
Quote:
I spend most of my free time during the school year here either at work, in my flat, or taking a weekend jaunt to Hong Kong


How long does it take you to get to Hong Kong? Chaozhou is 6 hours by train to Guangzhou and then another 2 hours?

4.5 hours to Shenzhen by bus, a half hour or so to cross the border, then another 45 minutes on the train into HK. Six and a half hours in total. I never use the train here, the service is too slow and infrequent.


How does one apply to the this university?

Here:

fao at hstc.edu.cn and hstcfao at 163.com

There was another thread on this school a couple of years ago started by someone else. As I recall one of the reasons that person didn't take the job was because of a misunderstanding in the contract. If anyone contacts this school and gets a reply and there's anything that doesn't mesh with what I've written in this thread, send me a message here and I'm happy to try clarify.

I was also asked via PM if there's part time work to be had here, and how much you can earn doing that. There is and I've been offered it many times over the years but I've never done any of it (other people have though). Sometimes this extra work comes via the FAO, and other times some local company gets wind of a foreigner at the school and they might contact the school who in turn will tell them how to contact you. I don't know how much you can make but I'd guess a couple of thousand per month wouldn't be too hard. More if you can network yourself efficiently. There's a few small private language schools here and they'd be good places to start looking. One of them right outside our school employs a guy from Ghana who I've seen around a few times.
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JZer



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have internet in your apartment?
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JZer wrote:
Do you have internet in your apartment?

I wish I could tell you that my brain has transmogrified into a sort of super-computer that allows me to post from any location by transmitting my thoughts through the airwaves . . . but I cannot.

Yeah, I have internet in my apartment and it's fine.
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nomadic_meow



Joined: 07 Apr 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Vietnam

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is four years old and it's a relatively glowing review by a single person...

Does anyone have anything more up to date? Curious about this place.
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Modernist



Joined: 03 Jan 2016
Posts: 72
Location: Routing

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, 'glowing' is kind of a strong term. It depends much more on you than that poster or the school.

If you set aside his/her somewhat enthusiastic language and extensive detailing, it really sounds like a pretty bog-standard public Uni job. If they are still only paying 6500 a month in 2017, then it's actually rather below average.

Last year I had a public job at 14 teaching hours a week, no writing classes, no work of any kind outside the classroom (and what I did inside the classroom wasn't in any way checked), and was paid 7500 a month. It was not even the slightest amount of trouble to get it, either. All English or related majors, some very good speakers, 80% of classes around 20 kids per, 90%+ female, typical multimedia equipment in every classroom, and at least some of the time we had AC (if the school could be shamed or bothered to turn it on). I was in a provincial capital and it certainly did not take me 4.5 hours on a bus to make it somewhere interesting (3 hours on the train to Shanghai, which was bad enough).

The city (Chaozhou) is tiny by Chinese standards. Shantou is sort of there, but realistically it's a ways to get anywhere. You would need to be comfortable essentially in the middle of nowhere (I was not). Likely no Western food, lousy shopping, no entertainment except KTV and crappy bars. Hopefully you like staying home and drinking and watching lots of TV or playing video games because that's essentially your life. In my prior job, I had mostly old co-workers, well over 50, and it seemed like they were fine with sitting around all day doing more or less nothing. This drove me crazy. I would imagine that in most schools in places like this, you will have retirement age foreigners as the majority of your co-workers (still don't really get that, but then maybe when I hit 55 it will suddenly make sense to me).

As for the pay, I mean, if you are living on 8000 or less a month, not counting privates and don't have external income (from investments or property or something), and you can enjoy that life, then great, I guess. For me it was impossible. I ended up with essentially no savings after a year. I don't want the life that you get in China on less than 1000 USD a month. I could do it, but I don't WANT to do it. I like buying expensive things sometimes, I like eating Western food sometimes, I like traveling, I like nice hotels, and I also want some savings. I didn't come all this way to live like a Chinese cab driver. Whatever the 'authentic' Chinese experience may be, I don't care. I want to have a comfortable life.

And as for privates, you'd better be real sure about the location. Lots of these colleges are so far away from any other part of town, no matter what the city, that it's pointless to try to make privates work because the student pool is too far away from you (it took me an hour to get to the 'rich' part of my old city). Traveling eats up your earnings. The college kids mostly can't afford it and your Chinese co workers don't get paid much either, so if they offer tutoring to you the rates will be pitiful.

5 months of 'paid' vacation? First of all, don't assume you get 100% of your salary in summer. More than likely you'll get some kind of stipend, like 2000 a month. And only if you renew. Second, what good is so much vacation if you're not paid enough to go anywhere? Some of my ex co workers just sat around most of the summer doing, I don't know, even more nothing than usual, I guess. WTF is the point of that?

Now I'm working at a private high school for rich kids and making 2.5 times what I was before. Class sizes a little bigger, student English considerably better, apartment vastly better, behavior a little worse but not awful, have Western food nearby, better shopping, better connections via rail and air, etc.

I wouldn't work in a public Uni again unless I am financially comfortable enough to not even notice what I'm earning. The students are usually great, I can say that. I do miss them.

What I've said above can almost certainly apply both to this normal university, and 90% of other basic provincial schools (technology schools, finance and econ schools, agricultural schools, etc) throughout the country.

Fancier 985 or 211 schools are sometimes a bit different but not much. If anything they can have worse working conditions because I guess you're supposed to be grateful for the honor of working at them (see Zhejiang University, Chongqing University, Northeast Normal, etc).
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Curtinca



Joined: 26 Feb 2016
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to OP for this interesting and informative review. Sounds like you lucked into a really good gig.

In response to the comment about Guangdong being a difficult province in which to land a job, I would say, based on my own experience, that it's worth the extra effort.
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Foo_Fighters_Dave



Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fancier 985 or 211 schools are sometimes a bit different but not much. If anything they can have worse working conditions because I guess you're supposed to be grateful for the honor of working at them (see Zhejiang University, Chongqing University, Northeast Normal, etc).[/quote]

I am intrigued with this comment. What is the issue with working at Chongqing University? They have a You Tube channel and seem to give you a decent two bedroom apartment and the campus looks nice. Are there problems working there?

If you want to make money, the Middle East is your best option. I am in the Middle East saving a lot of money and planning on heading to either China or Colombia next and just live comfortably off of my savings.

Thank you for your post. I have heard most uni's are in the sticks. What is the point in working there if you are in the middle of nowhere.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foo_Fighters_Dave wrote:
Fancier 985 or 211 schools are sometimes a bit different but not much. If anything they can have worse working conditions because I guess you're supposed to be grateful for the honor of working at them (see Zhejiang University, Chongqing University, Northeast Normal, etc).


I am intrigued with this comment. What is the issue with working at Chongqing University? They have a You Tube channel and seem to give you a decent two bedroom apartment and the campus looks nice. Are there problems working there?

If you want to make money, the Middle East is your best option. I am in the Middle East saving a lot of money and planning on heading to either China or Colombia next and just live comfortably off of my savings.

Thank you for your post. I have heard most uni's are in the sticks. What is the point in working there if you are in the middle of nowhere.[/quote]

I think a lot of unis are cashing up on their city campuses and moving to the burbs. I guess providing better playing fields, student dorms and teaching space for students is very unfair to FTs who expect to be located in the downtown adjacent to Starbucks, McTucky's plus bars and clubs.
Student-centred education? Where will it all end?
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Modernist



Joined: 03 Jan 2016
Posts: 72
Location: Routing

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What is the issue with working at Chongqing University? They have a You Tube channel and seem to give you a decent two bedroom apartment and the campus looks nice. Are there problems working there?

Far as I've heard, they run through foreign teachers like water. Check the job postings. They are ALWAYS hiring. Red flag to me. Think they have some boss foreigner, Pedro maybe, who's quite full of himself and likes to 'manage' people in a way that is not welcome. On top of that, the pay is meh and for amount of teaching hours and BS isn't worth the trouble. Who cares if the students are 'better' on the gaokao than some random provincial school? In terms of teaching in China, the 'better' students can be more trouble.

Nice campuses hardly matter. Xiamen University has a gorgeous campus, for example. Doesn't affect your life so much compared to the pay, the benefits, the workload, the location. And 2BR, so what? Do you want a roommate? I had a 2BR at my old school, the second room was mostly storage. Now I have a 1BR but it's bigger, better layout, and most importantly, reasonably clean, new and maintained, unlike before.

And, do you really want to live in Chongqing? Lousy weather, far from many things, not as much foreign stuff as you would think given its size. If you want to be in the west, do Chengdu, it's much nicer.

Quote:
If you want to make money, the Middle East is your best option. I am in the Middle East saving a lot of money

The only way I'll ever do the Middle East is at a co-ed school. I prefer teaching girls so much more, no matter the culture, it's not even funny. They are smarter, they work harder, they make an effort, they are less irritating, they follow my instructions, they don't copy (as much), they cooperate, they are more clever and charming and polite. Even half boys is annoying. 100% boys is unacceptable. I don't care how much they pay.

Quote:
I think a lot of unis are cashing up on their city campuses and moving to the burbs. I guess providing better playing fields, student dorms and teaching space for students is very unfair to FTs who expect to be located in the downtown adjacent to Starbucks, McTucky's plus bars and clubs.
Student-centred education? Where will it all end?

Sarcasm aside, you're kidding yourself if you think they even consider the students when they decide about campuses. They could care less about 'better' teaching space or dorms. Have you seen what passes for buildings on some of these 'new' campuses?

They put them out in nowhere because the land is cheap, they want the older central space to redevelop into something 'profitable' (for who, is always the question), and often, they think a university can be an anchor for a new area they hope will also attract tech companies and research labs and various other kinds of sexy projects. Same reason they put bullet train stations way out there. Usually doesn't work but why would that stop them?
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sarcasm aside, you're kidding yourself if you think they even consider the students when they decide about campuses. They could care less about 'better' teaching space or dorms. Have you seen what passes for buildings on some of these 'new' campuses?

Dalian Medical and Dalian FLU have relocated and their new facilities are way better than the city ones. Also the Medical U is pitching for foreign students so a key to that is better facilities.
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ghost



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: Saudi Arabia

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Hanshan Normal University Reply with quote

Back to the original question.

Hanshan Normal University. Location is Chaozhou, in Guandong Province, well served by the high speed trains from Shenzhen, and/or Guangzhou. From Shenzhen a mere two hours away, at a cost of around 100 Chinese smackers.

I work here and it is a decent place to work. I think certain personality types would be well suited to working here and those would be introverted types, or self sufficient types who are happy to function on their own, more or less, without all the stimulation that foreigners often seek in first tier cities in China.

Shenzhen and Hong Kong, are just 2 hrs and 3 hrs away by fast train. Guangzhou is a similar time frame away. There is even an airport here, serving Chaozhou/Shantou, curiously named "Waisha" airport (code - SWA), which can connect you to other cities, and there are flights from here to places like Thailand and the Philippines - ideal for short breaks if you prefer avoiding the travel to a major city.

I have been here for over two and a half years, and it is a mostly stress free job, and that counts for quite a bit.

The air quality is decent, so if you are into sports, as I am, you could do a lot worse than this location. Personally, I am into open water swimming and we have a great river here, where we can swim around 6 months of the year (some hardy souls swim all year!), just a few meters from the school gates. That is a great asset. The air quality is acceptable enough for jogging and speed walking. If you are into cycling, you can be out onto hilly, relatively light traffic roads, within around 2km from the university. Honestly, for sporty types, this is a very good place to keep fit.

The city (Chaozhou) has all the usual western fast food outlets if you need your western treats on an occasional basis. If you don't like the offerings in the school canteens, you can always cook for yourself, and this is what I do for at least 70% of my meals.

We are lucky to have a very pleasant and supportive Academic Supervisor, and she is not leaving anytime soon, so if you come here, she will help you a maximum and make sure you are comfortable with your work load. Speaking of work load - it is really up to you. You are not micro managed here, so teachers can work in a stress free environment. Some teachers in the past, have taken advantage of that situation, by doing a bare minimum, but as said, it depends on you and your level of integrity. At the end of the day, I think most teachers try to do a decent job.

I plan to move on next July, but the other teachers here have been here for 11 years +, 7 years + and one guy just left after being here for around 4 years, so those numbers mean that some teachers here can be happy and carve a decent little niche for themselves here.

In fact we are looking for one or two new teachers here now, so if anyone is interested, please feel free to p.m. me, and I will fill you in on the essentials and any other questions you may have.



Ghost in China
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