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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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 Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Shakey wrote: "I do not want the Japanese to be fine with foreigners invading their country." Then what the hell are you doing in Japan? Shouldn't you help this resistance to multiculturalism by repatriating yourself back to wherever you came from? Oh wait, you are the good gaijin, right? You know some keigo. You bow. You've gone rice planting.... Don't worry. If I ever run into you at a festival and see you in your happi coat and fundoshi, I won't give away your secret that you aren't Japanese. [/quote] |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:18 am Post subject: |
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I am thinking I am near the end. If I cannot get better work, I will leave. I am looking at China or the USA. It is not my first choice, but then I could buy a house in Osaka. My wife would never live in China.
As you get older there are fewer opportunities. Just working part-time is not fun, unless one can make enough money. The long commutes really make me tired.
I made the most money in my 30s, but the last 2-3 years have been really tough. There is a glut of teachers and there is really a preference for younger teachers with limited experience.
The longer I am here the more I tire of the conformity. I cannot change who I am. I continue to learn Japanese but I am not going to act like one.
There is a lot of indifference and apathy in this society, especially around Tokyo. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| victory7 wrote: |
| uneducated right wing |
I am an educated right-winger and I can see value in what he is saying. Demographics is destiny and diversity is generally divisive. Japan has its own problems to be sure but bringing in large numbers of foreigners is probably not the solution. Conversely, many Western nations are having to dealing with rapidly changing demographics and all the problems that go with it.
Having said that, Japan has room for small numbers of useful, educated foreigners. Language teachers, certainly.
I have no easy answers but I think there is some balance to be found here. |
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victory7
Joined: 22 Mar 2016
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
| victory7 wrote: |
| uneducated right wing |
I am an educated right-winger and I can see value in what he is saying. Demographics is destiny and diversity is generally divisive. Japan has its own problems to be sure but bringing in large numbers of foreigners is probably not the solution. Conversely, many Western nations are having to dealing with rapidly changing demographics and all the problems that go with it.
Having said that, Japan has room for small numbers of useful, educated foreigners. Language teachers, certainly.
I have no easy answers but I think there is some balance to be found here. |
I appreciate your grown-up response but value is not the word we should use about the way shakey, well named, expressed their views. You are making a similar mistake in labelling 'diversity' as negative and implying that nations/societies which cannot move with reality but became the agents of their own decline somehow can be held up as a positive example.
Japan's decline is on track to become a sharp plunge in the relatively near future and it will get ugly as Japanese society blames others for the problems it created through its ultra-ethnocentricity. There is a reason that while Japan was still building wooden temples, hundreds of years before Paris was home to the amazing technology in the shape of Notre Dame Cathedral.
Diversity is why European countries developed technology, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and many other forerunners of the modernity that we take for granted. The Chinese invented gunpowder among other things but stood still because the authorities could not be questioned and closed China off very much like the Japanese authorities did to Japan later.
What we call Europeans/British/Irish/Scots are melting pots of many diverse ethnic groups. Etruscans, Lombards, Phoenicians, Romans, Huns,Vandals, Goths, Burgundians, Franks, Gauls, Jutes, Saxons, Celts, the Danes who became the Normans, the Scotia, Britons, and many others made Europe the cultural and technological powerhouse it became. Jewish people's contribution to science and medicine among other fields is well known.
As an American with German grandparents, I am very familiar with Germany. I have taken my Japanese family there on a no. of occasions. The problems with asylum seekers and refugees is that Merkel opened the borders with a 'come all' invitation for Syrians.
What Germany received were many people pretending to be Syrian but actually North Africans and others who took advantage of the US government's assistance to the groups that murdered Colonel Gadaffi in Libya. Before Gadaffit's downfall, people could not enter Europe so easily but they are now coming through Libya and other exits made possible by the chaos and violence faciliated by such 'liberals' as Hillary Clinton when she was US Secretary of State.
Open borders and disorganised actions to allow large populations from other countries to move without correct and legal visa processes into other countries is the problem. Not diversity nor immigration nor refugee intakes in themselves. Africans at present are helping revive farming regions in Spain as the locals' youth want nothing to do with farming to give one example of how productive actions can be implemented.
And the fact is the whole premise of 'Ooh, diversity is bad for Japan, just look at Europe etc' is simply misleading. Often deliberately. Nobody is saying Japan needs a big intake of non Japanese including refugees etc but the horrific demographics speak for themselves.
And while Japan recognises the need for some skilled foreigners at present, the society at the same time refuses to understand that relegating many to 3rd class residents is and will be precisely what is making international companies leave Tokyo and what is and will prevent Japan from solving its increasing woes that come from demographics and xenophobia - the problems springing precisely from the xenophobia.
The best talent goes and will keep going to immigrant countries where skills and investment do not relegate you to 3rd class residents but give you stability and a future in the country. And stop the 'Japan doesn't need...' already - the horrific demographics mean that it is inevitable Japan will no longer be able to practise its deluded policies without pleading for investment and Asian immigration in the not so far future. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| victory7 wrote: |
| Diversity is why European countries developed technology, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and many other forerunners of the modernity that we take for granted. |
Intellectual diversity is quite different from racial and cultural diversity. The West developed the former and it created a powerhouse of innovation. Multiracial societies typically have lower levels of cohesion and trust and higher levels of conflict and tension.
The US has become a very chaotic society with a resurgence of rioting and political violence. Plus one of the angriest elections I have ever seen.
Europe is being swarmed with unskilled workers from unassimilable cultures. Semi-regular terrorism and high rates of sexual assault are common around Europe.
Conversely, most of the greatest achievements of the US were when it was 90% White. Japan became the second largest economy when it was 98% Japanese.
I really do not see much value in importing problems into these societies. Nor do I think they would care what we think. Japan will have to figure out its problems on its own. Or not. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
Conversely, most of the greatest achievements of the US were when it was 90% White. |
I guess the US never had any "great achievements" then, as it was never "90% White." Don't try to quote census numbers at me--African American numbers have only been included since 1790, Native Americans and Asians only since 1860 (though all Native Americans in the U.S. were not enumerated until 1890), and Hispanics (despite being the majority in several states through the late 1800s) only since 1940. In other words, the white-only past of the US is an absolute myth, the result of racist census-taking policies where nonwhites literally did not count.
| steki47 wrote: |
Japan became the second largest economy when it was 98% Japanese. |
They also started and lost WWII when it was 98% Japanese. They are also on the cusp of being overtaken by comparatively multiracial China. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
Demographics is destiny and diversity is generally divisive. |
Throughout human history, almost all the great empires (Rome, Persia, Ottoman, Mongol...and even the US) have had racial diversity.
| steki47 wrote: |
Japan has its own problems to be sure but bringing in large numbers of foreigners is probably not the solution. |
According to 2014 estimates, 33.0% of the Japanese population is above the age of 60, 25.9% are aged 65 or above, and 12.5% are aged 75 or above. (Also in 2014, sales of adult diapers here officially surpassed diapers for babies.) With the workforce shrinking, who is to pay for the pensions and increasing health care costs of these people?
In direct contrast to Japan, the more open immigration policies in Australia, Canada, and the United States have allowed their workforces to grow despite low overall fertility rates.
| steki47 wrote: |
Having said that, Japan has room for small numbers of useful, educated foreigners. Language teachers, certainly. |
Thankfully, "language teachers" have never made up a numerically significant category of the foreign population here. The overwhelming majority of foreigners in Japan are not native English speakers. Of those foreigners who work, the overwhelming majority work in factories, or as "trainees" in a variety of other, labor-intensive industries.
Finally, as the Japanese government doesn't count "race" in its yearly census--they only consider nationality--it's a bit difficult to discuss the racial/ethnic makeup of even the "Japanese" population. E.g., the Ainu, native Okinawan, Korean and Chinese populations are all counted as "Japanese"...as that is what it says on their passports. Maybe the US should do the same? |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| taikibansei wrote: |
| I guess the US never had any "great achievements" then, as it was never "90% White." |
Tactical nihilism and snarky use of quotation marks. I would counter with new data but
| taikibansei wrote: |
| Don't try to quote census numbers at me |
You do not want to hear my numbers but throw out data like so much squid ink.
Anywho, moving on, diversity can be very divisive and is often avoidable. Putnam (2000) concluded that diverse areas had lower levels of trust and cohesion and other data indicates higher levels of tension and conflict.
Again, looking at various Western countries and their chaotic states, I can see why Japanese may not want to "celebrate diversity". Japan can find other solutions to their problems. Come home at a reasonable time and you may have energy to knock up your wife and solve a few other problems in Japan.
PS-This fixation on the economy for justification of mass immigration is so weird to me. Do we really think people are simply interchangeable cogs? Do we want to mess up neighborhoods and destroy cultures for cheap veggies? |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
You do not want to hear my numbers but throw out data like so much squid ink. |
Oh, I'd love to hear your numbers, as long as said numbers include African American numbers (which have only been included in the census since 1790), Native Americans and Asians (only included since 1860...though all Native Americans in the U.S. were not enumerated until 1890), and Hispanics (only included from 1940 onward). I don't think you have such numbers from the 1700s and early 1800s (as I don't believe they exist)--and if you do, you should publish them--but I am open to being surprised.
| steki47 wrote: |
Anywho, moving on, diversity can be very divisive and is often avoidable. |
 Life, too. Hey, since you're "educated," please explain to me how the 部落民 and 非国民 (two separate issues that underline over two thousand years of Japanese brutality and discrimination against its own people) came about in ostensibly monoracial (and therefore harmonious) Japan. Please discuss the work of 中上健次, who wrote several books on the brutality, discrimination and suffering experienced daily in his 部落民 community. Don't forget 石浜みかる, who has written several books about how her father along with numerous other people in her neighborhood were one day dragged off to prison labor camps because they were 非国民. (In 石浜's case, it was because her father was Christian.) Most 非国民 remained in these prison labor camps until the US arrived after WW2. Many died in those camps. Nobel Prize-winning 大江健三郎 was actually sued by the Japanese government (ostensibly acting on behalf of "veterans") for writing about Japan's history of discrimination and violence towards its own people. He won...twice (2008, 2011). I.e., 大江 beat the Japanese government, who had argued basically what you do here (about Japan's racially harmonious past...), and lost in court. Why? Because the Japan you keep trying to describe never existed; moreover, as human history keeps demonstrating, even in ostensibly monoracial societies, excuses will continually be found to discriminate against large sections of the population...and call their very presence divisive. (Heck, for another example closer to home, look at the history of the Irish and their treatment by the British...though perhaps you're one of those who read Swift's A Modest Proposal and miss the sarcasm....)
Finally, when you and your buddies gather together this Thanksgiving (ironically a day set aside to celebrate how Native Americans saved the white colonists from certain death), don't forget to discuss such topics as how black slave labor built the South, and how Chinese labor (representing ninety percent of the workforce) built the transcontinental railroads. But yeah, diversity sucks, and most of the greatest achievements of the US were White...sure.
Good luck to you. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Yup, history is a slaughter bench. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Japan in no way needs unfettered immigration like the West. I like how even "inner city" Tokyo and Osaka are pretty safe. With mass immigration, that would no longer be true.
I am sorry, but until a country has become fully developed, and has a lower birth rate and a high education rate, it's people should not have access to open borders. It would cause, and in fact does cause all kinds of chaos. Education, special social services, and crime. I as a long term Japanese resident, do not wish to see this. |
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currentaffairs
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 828
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The amount of bollocks I see on this thread... One of the main reasons that Japan has a lot of social problems is precisely because of the complete lack of empathy for those deemed to be 'other'. Yes, much of it is bottled away but when you see how those of Korean decent, Ainu heritage or the mixed race people from South America are treated you begin to understand where the fault lines are.. |
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now_or_never
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
Japan in no way needs unfettered immigration like the West. I like how even "inner city" Tokyo and Osaka are pretty safe. With mass immigration, that would no longer be true.
I am sorry, but until a country has become fully developed, and has a lower birth rate and a high education rate, it's people should not have access to open borders. It would cause, and in fact does cause all kinds of chaos. Education, special social services, and crime. I as a long term Japanese resident, do not wish to see this. |
Aren't you an immigrant? |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| currentaffairs wrote: |
| because of the complete lack of empathy for those deemed to be 'other'. |
This position is deeply flawed and, frankly, quite ethnocentric.
1. East Asian societies are generally collective and inward-looking.
2. Ethnic identities are perceived as fixed with a binary vision of the world (Japan vs. "Other Countries").
3. The Intergroup Contact Theory is largely bunk. Increased and often involuntary contact with "Others" usually lowers social cohesion and trust.
I am aware of Japanese treatment of Koreans, eta, etc. And I really doubt many Japanese care what I think about it. It is their country, after all. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
I am sorry, but until a country has become fully developed, and has a lower birth rate and a high education rate, it's people should not have access to open borders. |
Um, well then, it would seem that "fully developed" Japan, with "its lower birth rate and a high education rate," should then have open borders...yes?
| rxk22 wrote: |
It would cause, and in fact does cause all kinds of chaos. Education, special social services, and crime. |
Yeah, look what happened to the US once they started letting in Italians...and the Irish.
(Note: I am of Irish/Italian descent. A little known fact from US history is that, until the late 1800s, "real Americans"  were making your same arguments against Irish, Italian, Chinese and Jewish immigrants. Yet somehow, America survived this "invasion"....) |
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