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IH Bydgoszcz are recruiting. Unbelievable.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 670

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might surprise some people, but I agree with dragonpiwo here. 1700zl net in today's Poland when wages are skyrocketing is just an insult. Yes, it might accurately reflect what IH can charge their clients in the face of huge competition, but it's still a dreadful wage.

To give an idea: I was doing some job interviews for a PA because my colleague was sick and someone had to do them. Not a single person quoted less than 3200z net for an entry level position, and even our HR said that they were looking to pay between 3000-3500zł net per month.

All the development/etc in the world won't make up for the fact that this is an awful monthly wage. Food prices are going up very, very quickly, and there's just no way that someone without a support network in Poland could survive on such a wage.

I don't blame IH Bygodszcz here, as a quick look shows that they're only getting around 100zł for group classes an hour, so the wage is 'fair', but it doesn't mean it's a good wage by local standards.

Incidentally, average wage in Poland is now over 2500zł net per month, and wages are rising incredibly rapidly.
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manumany



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2,500 post deductions in the real-world is the national average, but IH's 1700 is also after rent and bills, so it's essentially the same.

I agree it's not a great wage, and I make more since I left, but it's the national average for the country it's in.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1576
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:39 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Was making 3 times that in 1998 when Poland was cheap!
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1197
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1,700zl net after rent was about what I made when I first started teaching in '06. I was able to make ends meet, just barely. This involved eating pasta, vegetables and rice at home a lot. I couldn't travel much, even within Poland.

Through working that job, I got my foot in the door, however. I was subsequently able to find better paying work, including at the British Council, which paid much better.

So, taking a job like that is great if you want to start a new life in Poland and need to get some exp..

Working a job like that is pretty bleak in the short term, or if you're clueless enough to be doing the same exact job ten years later.
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juriusz



Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surprise! They are advertising again. Same salary, same conditions. Somehow the person who took the job wasn't too happy and left (well, my guess at least).

Let's bet: when are we going to see them advertising again? My bet is on March.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1576
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:31 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Surely someone will bugger off after winter break.
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iknowwhatiamtalkingabout



Joined: 02 Sep 2011
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was there much less than 20 years ago and the conditions are slightly different to the above descriptions.

1) IH fully pay the rent and bills. Also, everyone lived in central Bydgoszcz. Nobody was miles from the centre of town and almost everyone had pretty nice places. I walked to work. Most people did.
2) Winter break was paid. I was always paid a full salary regardless of hours worked. Some teachers worked winter break, but they got additional holiday pay for this.
3) The training was great. Highly personalised development and lots of individual attention. You'd have to not want to improve to avoid becoming a decent teacher. Also, this reputation does travel, as I've also been given the 'IH North, eh? You must know your onions' chat on three occasions since leaving.
4) Most people stayed a few years then left to work for the British Council. Everybody I know who worked there was glad that they had worked there.

The money's not amazing, but it's not bad when you consider rent and bills are included. What the deal was like in 1998 is completely irrelevant. The world is different now. I'd still happily point someone in the direction of IH Bydgoszcz for a good start to their teaching career. As first jobs go, it's miles better than most.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1197
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iknowwhatiamtalkingabout wrote:
I was there much less than 20 years ago and the conditions are slightly different to the above descriptions.


How long ago were you there? Things can change fast in the TEFL world.

I visited Bydgoszcz a few times between '06 and 2014. I liked the place. It's got a bit of a gritty, industrial feel but also lots of forests and some fun places to go out.

I knew some minority and LGBTQ people who lived there and had problems with the local hooligans. May not be the best place to live if you hail from either background.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1576
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: re I know what I'm talking about Reply with quote

My house is in Poland. My wife and son are Polish. I first went there in 95 and was there 2 months ago, so there goes, the info's out of date bit. Let's just go back to the original point:

1.) The wage is appalling in modern Poland and by that I mean Poland 2017.
2.) While Bydgoszcz has improved a bit, it's still a dump.
3.) 22 years into this teaching malarky, noone has ever mentioned IH and actually I leave jobs like that off my CV these days. I even leave the BC job off.

But what do I know?
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iknowwhatiamtalkingabout



Joined: 02 Sep 2011
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: re I know what I'm talking about Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
My house is in Poland. My wife and son are Polish. I first went there in 95 and was there 2 months ago, so there goes, the info's out of date bit. Let's just go back to the original point:

1.) The wage is appalling in modern Poland and by that I mean Poland 2017.
2.) While Bydgoszcz has improved a bit, it's still a dump.
3.) 22 years into this teaching malarky, noone has ever mentioned IH and actually I leave jobs like that off my CV these days. I even leave the BC job off.

But what do I know?


That's nice for you, but completely irrelevant. The people who apply for this job will almost exclusively be fresh off the CELTA. Possibly a year ot two in Korea or something like that. They won't have their pick of the jobs and they'll be looking to build a career.

IH Bydgoszcz is a good step on that ladder. They'll be supported much more than in most other schools and life will be relatively straightforward for them. Paid a salary every month, too.

It's a good job for a new teacher. When I was working there I had friends working elsewhere in the country making more money per hour than I was. But many of them got shafted by their employers in ways that never happened to me and none of their schools seemed to put a tenth of the effort into developing their teachers as Bydgoszcz did.

I'm very glad to have worked there. It was a great first job.

I'm not sure what fabulous jobs with a great salary and loads of developent you think are out there for a fresh-faced CELTA graduate?
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1576
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: hmmmm Reply with quote

Build a career. I snorted my coffee when I read that.

Shame on you for defending employers that don't provide a living wage. There are employers who are offering accommodation and 3000.
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juriusz



Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This job offer is insulting. People who work at Tesco have better conditions (and Polish Tesco is famous for being horrible). At least they don't have to go to another town twice a week. I don't know why anyone would try to make it look good. Let's get some things straight:
- this salary is a joke. It comes to around 90 PLN a day (excluding weekends). A pair of shoes is at least 100 PLN these days. A pair of decent shoes is 250-400 PLN. That's almost one week of work at IH Bydgoszcz. Even if you go for the cheapest things at Biedronka (not Lidl cos if you are making that little, Lidl becomes a luxurious place), you need ~60 PLN a week to survive. If you teach one private a day, you are looking at 50 PLN or more. At IH Bydgoszcz you probably end up teaching six or eight lessons a day.
- sharing a flat is fine when you are 20 and studying. It is not when you are working full time. Bydgoszcz is not Warsaw, flats are not insanely expensive. And it's been mentioned: the apartment is not central. Whatever, Bydgoszcz is not a town that has a proper city centre anyway.
- I worked for IH, I know how they define workload of 24/30 hours. You end up doing over 40 hours a week. Lessons, lesson planning, creating materials, commuting. 30 hours become 50-60. An hour of your work is around 10 PLN.
- they are advertising over and over again. Because it's become difficult to find an idiot who would like to work for that little. Even people who want to drink their way through Europe don't apply. I haven't seen a job offering that little in years. Leaflets, pizza delivery, toilet cleaning, the list goes on. They all offer better conditions. We are talking about a job that requires some qualifications, dedication, passion, etc. It is insane that you are trying to encourage people to go for it.
- building a career - for the majority there is no career in EFL. Other places don't give a fiddler's fart about your professional development from IH. Be it IH Bydgoszcz, Katowice, Moscow, London or Prague.

You are defending this job offer second time. I am starting to think that you work there and are responsible for this.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1576
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: juriusz Reply with quote

I wish that post had a 'like' button. Biedronka was under my old flat. I'm not sure 60zeez would cut it for a week. More like 150.
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depechemodefan1966



Joined: 31 Jan 2015
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sent them my CV, out of curiosity and never heard anything back. Not even a courteous "Thank you for your CV, we'll be in touch".

The fact that they have advertised twice in the space of a few months should tell even the newest of teachers what they are like to work for.

I would have to say with them not replying with a simple email together with their 'new teachers wanted' on such a regular basis, would anyone want to work for them anyway?
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iknowwhatiamtalkingabout



Joined: 02 Sep 2011
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juriusz wrote:
This job offer is insulting. People who work at Tesco have better conditions (and Polish Tesco is famous for being horrible). At least they don't have to go to another town twice a week. I don't know why anyone would try to make it look good. Let's get some things straight:
- this salary is a joke. It comes to around 90 PLN a day (excluding weekends). A pair of shoes is at least 100 PLN these days. A pair of decent shoes is 250-400 PLN. That's almost one week of work at IH Bydgoszcz. Even if you go for the cheapest things at Biedronka (not Lidl cos if you are making that little, Lidl becomes a luxurious place), you need ~60 PLN a week to survive. If you teach one private a day, you are looking at 50 PLN or more. At IH Bydgoszcz you probably end up teaching six or eight lessons a day.

When I was there we taught three lessons three days a week with one day with two lessons and one day with one lesson. Some teachers taught three lessons on four days and none on day five. Double-ups were common. For example, you'd have two upper-int groups, two elem groups and two pre-int groups. Kept the planning load down.

Also, after your first year you got significant input into your own timetable in terms of the levels you'd like to teach and the travel you had to do. You were encouraged to do levels or age-groups you'd never done to help with your development



- sharing a flat is fine when you are 20 and studying. It is not when you are working full time. Bydgoszcz is not Warsaw, flats are not insanely expensive. And it's been mentioned: the apartment is not central. Whatever, Bydgoszcz is not a town that has a proper city centre anyway.

First of all, I can't let this go unchallenged (again). The flats are - or at least were - central. We all lived close to work. I always walked to work in less than twenty minutes and was always within short walking distance of the rynek. Pretty much everybody was. Most people who go to Bydgoszcz are in their early twenties and don't mind sharing. Nobody minded when I was there. They're not trying to hire experienced teachers with a DELTA, a wife and a kid. They're looking for people right off the CELTA. As for a town centre, Bydgoszcz may not be New York, but we certainly enjoyed it. I had a great social life when I lived there. Mozq, Kubrk, Barka, El Jazz, Tryp, Bar Medyk, various others whose names now escape me. It was fun. We were out all the time, so our money obviously stretched far enough for that. I loved it. It's a great place to get out and enjoy yourself at that age.

- I worked for IH, I know how they define workload of 24/30 hours. You end up doing over 40 hours a week. Lessons, lesson planning, creating materials, commuting. 30 hours become 50-60. An hour of your work is around 10 PLN.

I worked for this very school and never once did 50-60 hours. Nothing like it. Nobody did. The planning load was very light as teachers tended to have double-ups and much of it (for new teachers) centred around planning groups led by more experienced teachers. These groups became optional when you had more experience, but most teachers stuck with them because they found them useful and they lightened the load with thinking time, material making etc. As mentioned above, the teachers all lived pretty close to work so there was no commute to speak of. I currently have a twenty-minute subway ride to work. Nobody had a trip that long when I was in Bydgoszcz.


- they are advertising over and over again. Because it's become difficult to find an idiot who would like to work for that little. Even people who want to drink their way through Europe don't apply. I haven't seen a job offering that little in years. Leaflets, pizza delivery, toilet cleaning, the list goes on. They all offer better conditions. We are talking about a job that requires some qualifications, dedication, passion, etc. It is insane that you are trying to encourage people to go for it.

It's really not insane. It's a good start to your career. I learned a lot there and enjoyed it. People tended to stay a long time. You're also forgetting that the salary is guaranteed and includes holidays.

Also, you're speculating as to why they are advertising again. It's quite possible that someone has quit. I think most years that I was there there was one teacher who wouldn't settle and would leave. That's life. I've seen it happen in other places too. However, they also hired mid-year because they'd had a spike in students or because they'd suddenly come up with some business work. They also hired a couple of times when I was there because teachers had left for BC jobs in Asia mid-year. I've got no idea what the reason is this time. Neither do you.


- building a career - for the majority there is no career in EFL. Other places don't give a fiddler's fart about your professional development from IH. Be it IH Bydgoszcz, Katowice, Moscow, London or Prague.

Of course there is, if you want it. I have a career in it right now. I make good money, save plenty, have ten weeks paid holiday a year, I have a good pension, I have a lovely flat. Seems like a career to me. Of course, your chances of a career aren't great if you don't worry about development. Lots of people I worked with at IH Bydgoszcz have moved on to better things in the industry. You know, career progression.

You are defending this job offer second time. I am starting to think that you work there and are responsible for this.

Classic Dave's response. I don't work there now and was never more than a humble teacher when I did. However, most people putting the boot into the job offer have never worked there and are getting simple things about it wrong. For example, your ridiculous assertion that people would work 60 hours a week. As I said before, it's a good starter job for a single person in their early twenties who wants to learn. Many people in tefl fit that profile.

It comes with the security of guaranteed pay and holiday pay and the knowledge that they will put work into your development and actually help you become good at the job. Most of my mates working in other jobs in Poland did no development in their entry job. In Bydgoszcz we had a session every week and three training days a year. There was an observation and peer observation program. They ran a pre-DELTA reading group. New teacher had to do the IH YL Certificate (free of charge). Teachers were encouraged to take training sessions of their own and were supported if they wanted to do research projects. There was loads of stuff. As I said, I'm glad I worked there. When I did my first BC interview I had loads to talk about because I'd had so many opportunities for development. Like I saud before, people tended to stick around for a few years. There's a reason for that.

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