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How's the scene in Indonesia?
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Indonesia is a country, and in my opinion, which I'm sharing with you, it is appropriate to call a country by its proper name. I have never in my life heard anyone refer to Mexico as "Mex", Cambodia as "Cam", Turkey as "Turk" and so on. Why should we not refer to Indonesia by its proper name?

And I'm not offended "on behalf" of Muslims, I'm offended as a Muslim... see the difference?

You think I have no right to express these things? That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it.
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jaybet3



Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoo! Whoo! That's the sound of the mystery chain chugging along.

Apologies if I hurt your feelings. That wasn't the intent. The main focus was to give my interpretation of the state of "Indo" based on my experiences and only what I've seen or heard.

(I think people say "Indo" like they do "Cali" for California because language evolves and Indo and Cali are easy ways to say the word.)

In regards to religion, it was my mistake to bring it up because that's such a hot button topic. I've got my "opinions" about Muslims since I live in a Muslim country. At the moment, I'm in Kelantan, Malaysia which is probably one of the most conservative Islamic areas in SE Asia. It's so conservative, that there's not even a movie theater because the local powers are afraid what young couples will do when the lights go down.

Anyway, there's no "loose women spreading there legs here" as far as I can tell.

My comment about Aceh was a roundabout way of taking a shot at those hypocritical Muslims who talk about their faith and then drink booze and chase women. They're people like that of every faith. It just so happens that the author of this chain ask about the situation in Indo, so that's why I briefly brought up religion.

So, chill out and pray to your God and maybe he can save us sinners.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaybet3 wrote:

Apologies if I hurt your feelings. That wasn't the intent. The main focus was to give my interpretation of the state of "Indo" based on my experiences and only what I've seen or heard.

(I think people say "Indo" like they do "Cali" for California because language evolves and Indo and Cali are easy ways to say the word.)

In regards to religion, it was my mistake to bring it up because that's such a hot button topic. I've got my "opinions" about Muslims since I live in a Muslim country. At the moment, I'm in Kelantan, Malaysia which is probably one of the most conservative Islamic areas in SE Asia. It's so conservative, that there's not even a movie theater because the local powers are afraid what young couples will do when the lights go down.

Anyway, there's no "loose women spreading there legs here" as far as I can tell.

My comment about Aceh was a roundabout way of taking a shot at those hypocritical Muslims who talk about their faith and then drink booze and chase women. They're people like that of every faith. It just so happens that the author of this chain ask about the situation in Indo, so that's why I briefly brought up religion.

So, chill out and pray to your God and maybe he can save us sinners.


Nice to hear from the person I was addressing my comments to, rather than a self-appointed intermediary. Laughing

Regarding "Indo": okay, okay, whatever ... it is a pet peeve for me, that's all; I'm sure it does no one any particular physical or emotional harm. When I first lived in "Indo" as a child about four decades ago, my siblings, friends and I also used "Indo" ... we heard it, and we repeated it. But I'm an adult now, or so I'm told, and using the proper term seems more "grown up" - as well as more respectful to the country itself - to me.

I don't have a problem with anyone bringing up religion or religious aspect of living in this or any country. I don't take the position at all that "nobody can say anything at all about Islam or Muslims because it is my 'sacred cow'" so to speak. I participate on another forum for expats (non specific to teachers or education) where a number of members regularly have a bash at Islam or the local activities of Muslims (and many of them, at religion in general) and I'm more than willing to engage with them point for point.

It's certainly not a "black and white" issue and yes, there is a great deal of hypocrisy among many Muslims in Indonesia and in other parts of the world, as well as a great many who practice the religion with sincerity and devotion. Just look at the Sultan of Brunei, who has instituted strict Sharia state in his kingdom, and some of the recently publicized stories about his activities and those of his family members.

Muslim women in Indonesia do date, many of them are quite willing to meet, interact with and date foreigners (how did I end up married to one, after all) and no, I'm not trying to say that all Muslimah are perfectly pure and chaste until either marriage or death, that would be konyol.

I just felt, as a Muslim husband, uncle, etc, that the way your comment was phrased (especially "facade" and "BS") was disrespectful and uncalled for, and I felt it personally necessary to say so. I'm glad you can take an evenhanded approach to this criticism and no permanent hard feelings on either side, I hope.


------------------------------------

Am I wrong to assume you are doing the ongoing Malaysian MOE "teacher training / mentoring" gig?

How's it going with that? The compensation offer looks good on paper, but I've read some questionable things about the Malaysian taxation system for foreign employees, etc, that put it in doubt. And what about the work and working / living conditions, other than what you've already mentioned?

(A bit off-topic, I know)
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markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject: Thoughts on Indonesia Reply with quote

Is Indonesia worth it?

Personally, I think it really depends on your expectations, and previous experiences in other countries.

A hardcore Bangkok expat, would probably find Indonesia, less exotic because of the entertainment options in the city, whilst an expat coming over from Vietnam, would find Indonesia less restrictive regarding renting a place to live, and dating women.

On the salary side, a decent teaching job in the ESL industry can pay more than the average salary in Thailand, and probably around the same as you earn in Vietnam, at a language school. There are many teaching options available throughout the country, which is a big plus.

The religious factor can be an issue depending on who you deal with, and the area you live in, but generally many Indonesians have a quite flexible attitude to their religion, unless you live in an area known for its religious conservatism.

It can become a big deal if your partner wants to marry, as a lot of Indonesian women do see marriage, as the final goal of a relationship. Many expatriates convert for this reason, but usually adopt a similar flexible attitude to the majority of local people.

For single or sometimes married guys, Indonesia is more a girl friend scene than Thailand or Vietnam, for instance, and flexible European style relationships can also happen, without the need to go down the road to marriage.

One thing that does put a lot of people off from working in Indonesia, is the drinking factor,as many Indonesians seem to dislike alcohol.

At one time, I was always asked if I drank by some employers, and often was hired on the spot, because I didn't drink alcohol. It seemed a big issue, in Indonesia, at that time.

Drawbacks to Indonesia,

On the whole can be the traffic situation in cities like Jakarta, and the sense of living in a crowded place, as Java, tends to have a huge population density, compared to some other Asian countries.

The current weakness of the rupiah, which could affect you, if you plan to travel to places like Singapore, or send money to re-pay debts back home, and may seem to be another disadvantage at the moment.

If you re used to borrowing rather than saving or living on your salary, Indonesia isn't a place you can get credit, like in the West, I guess this could also be considered another disadvantage.

On the whole, a lot of expatriates stay and re-new their contracts in Indonesia, and some are quite happy to remain for years in the country.

It isn't such an organized country like Singapore or a controlled society like you see in parts of Europe or Australia, and what I could see, generally suits more independent minded expatriates, who like adventure, and a challenge, rather than just the money.
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EFL Educator



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 962
Location: Cape Town

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I agree Indonesia is a great place to teach English...if money isn't a concern. Smile
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water rat



Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1083
Location: Ningbo

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can explain the Indonesia ESL scene with three letters.

Give me an S

S

Give me a U

U

Give me an X

X


Neutral
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p1randal



Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water rat:

Could you elaborate more than just spelling a word incorrectly? My experiences have been just the opposite. When I left my first job I had about 5-10 interviews with Nat + school's and now work for one and enjoy it very much. While it is true that Indonesia isn't for everyone, the job scene is pretty good (depending on your needs).
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Tazz



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 512
Location: Jakarta

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reckon Water Rat should head back down the sewer called inanity...and maybe pick up a bit of English on the way.
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water rat



Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1083
Location: Ningbo

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

p1randal wrote:
Water rat:

Could you elaborate more than just spelling a word incorrectly? My experiences have been just the opposite. When I left my first job I had about 5-10 interviews with Nat + school's and now work for one and enjoy it very much. While it is true that Indonesia isn't for everyone, the job scene is pretty good (depending on your needs).


I'm pleased for you if you have found a good position. I lived there 22 years and know of what I spelled out previously. Every place I worked, including one or two National Plus schools did as little for me as possible, and if I somehow finagled any advantage some envious Indonesian was always at hand to undo what I did for myself by ay of malicious gossip. The English course schools (which invariably go by three-letter names, like ABC, DEF, or XYZ) saw me and my kind (native English speakers) as indentured servants. Indonesians are rapacious, to put it kindly, and think of nothing but money. I have talked to potential private lesson students who I know have at least three Benzes in the garage, and a grandad with a corrupt government gravy train at his disposal, and offered to teach them or their offspring for a measly Rp 120,000/hr. "Can't it be lower?" - was always the standard retort. One colleague of mine in 2006 (2006!) was once offered Rp 2,000 an hour by such a person to teach her son. it was not a language mistake. She said she got up and left that well appointed mansion without a word - in utter disbelief. And in the retelling it was not a 'funny story'.

Jakarta ought to be abandoned and demolished. The traffic is so bad that a trip by angkot that takes 15 minutes at 3 a.m. (when there is no traffic - and I know because of red-eye flights to Singapore on visa runs that I took) takes an hour or more any time between 5:30 a.m. and midnight. I would not wish living on Jakarta on my worst enemies, or on souls condemned to H-E- double hockey stick for all eternity.

Enough said?
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p1randal



Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Water Rat,

What you have described are all valid points (though a bit hyperbolic). Some good points you bring up:

1. Gossip is a huge part of the culture here and people should be aware of that element. If you are someone who doesn't like that then Asia and in particular Indonesia is not a place for you.

2. The traffic is awful and for some that would be a deal breaker, so yes that is a valid point.

Your beef with the language schools is a bit jaded but that is up for debate. I don't know what private lessons have to do with anything. If someone offered me that I would just say no and leave it as that. Why would the person show up without knowing how much the pay will be?

You said you spent 22 years there? If you hated it so much, how did you managed 22 years? I assume a spouse/children..

Hope you have found happier pastures...
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water rat



Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1083
Location: Ningbo

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know me so well. Embarassed
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likwid_777



Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

water rat wrote:
p1randal wrote:
Water rat:

Could you elaborate more than just spelling a word incorrectly? My experiences have been just the opposite. When I left my first job I had about 5-10 interviews with Nat + school's and now work for one and enjoy it very much. While it is true that Indonesia isn't for everyone, the job scene is pretty good (depending on your needs).


I'm pleased for you if you have found a good position. I lived there 22 years and know of what I spelled out previously. Every place I worked, including one or two National Plus schools did as little for me as possible, and if I somehow finagled any advantage some envious Indonesian was always at hand to undo what I did for myself by ay of malicious gossip. The English course schools (which invariably go by three-letter names, like ABC, DEF, or XYZ) saw me and my kind (native English speakers) as indentured servants. Indonesians are rapacious, to put it kindly, and think of nothing but money. I have talked to potential private lesson students who I know have at least three Benzes in the garage, and a grandad with a corrupt government gravy train at his disposal, and offered to teach them or their offspring for a measly Rp 120,000/hr. "Can't it be lower?" - was always the standard retort. One colleague of mine in 2006 (2006!) was once offered Rp 2,000 an hour by such a person to teach her son. it was not a language mistake. She said she got up and left that well appointed mansion without a word - in utter disbelief. And in the retelling it was not a 'funny story'.

Jakarta ought to be abandoned and demolished. The traffic is so bad that a trip by angkot that takes 15 minutes at 3 a.m. (when there is no traffic - and I know because of red-eye flights to Singapore on visa runs that I took) takes an hour or more any time between 5:30 a.m. and midnight. I would not wish living on Jakarta on my worst enemies, or on souls condemned to H-E- double hockey stick for all eternity.

Enough said?


Tell you what, that was one of the best rants I've read for a while, and I mean that in a totally complimentary way. Unfortunately, it seems to echo what I've been able to gather from a great many late night "research" sessions on Indonesia.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 778
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of those informative threads.

From what I gather, all is mostly good, just the low pay. Which is pretty much how I've always thought about the Indonesia ESL scene.
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Mod Team


Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6536
Location: Need to know basis only.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Questions/Comments Regarding Moderator Actions Reply with quote

Posted at the top of this forum:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=85076


There will be no additional warnings.
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JZer



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3895
Location: Pittsburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is a TEFL certificate required to teach in Indonesia? I have a bachelor's degree.
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