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MA TESOL vs. Teaching License for futureproofing ESL Career
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyeur wrote:
I'd like to start a discussion as to what is a better way to future-proof myself as an ex-pat teacher for the next ~20-25 years, either in China or elsewhere.
....
My degree is in administration (business) with a minor in philosophy.
....
I'm here in China until at least July 2019, padding depleted savings and waiting for a small inheritance to finish being processed.
....
Canada having a teacher surplus may be old news. Some provinces may actually have a shortage in the future.

Frankly, I think you're limiting yourself by focusing on teaching only ESL once you age out of China or wherever. Plus, in addition to a k12 ESL-related teaching qualification, you'll need the appropriate degree (not one in business) to teach English language skills. There may not be a quick, convenient, and low-cost path towards that goal. And don't count on the TESOL market in the west needing a high number of ESL teachers in the future.

A suggestion: Consider getting a Master's in Educational Technology or M.Ed in Instructional Design. (I have the former and work as an instructional designer in the US.) It's fine for teaching ESL while you're in China. Moreover, it will make you marketable for instruction/training-related jobs in just about every industry in Canada, and it pays much more than teaching. Plus, many instructional designers have the ability to work remotely.
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Voyeur



Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I'll look into those masters courses. I'm just gathering ideas at this point, still being at least 10 months away from any major moves (though I suppose I could start picking away at online course work any day).

But I have now abandoned the MA TESOL idea. As I said, that made more sense when the Persian Gulf was still attractive. So if I pursued a Western teacher certification that was ultimately portable to Canada (my home country), it would not be ESL focused. Ideally, I'd like the ability to teach K-12 and teach older rather than younger; but as has been brought up, the older you want to be qualified to teach, the more you have to align undergraduate courses with teachables. So maybe I'd settle for something aimed at Primary kids. Sorting out all the requirements is proving to be a bit complex, but I'm looking for some good online forums with people who are in the know to help guide my research.

There's also a company called Canteach that puts you through a 1-year education program in Scotland, Wales, NZ, or Oz, but that works with the Ontario College of Teachers and gets you an Ontario (biggest province in Canada) Teaching license at the end of it (and that license is fairly transferable within Canada or to other Western countries).

The entire program would cost about CAD$30,000 (including travel and living expenses) and tale about 11 months. However, there may be other options as well. Right now I've sent them my university transcripts and they are going to get back to me on whether I'd need supplemental undergraduate courses. And as you say, teacher certification is not the only path to consider.
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Unheard Utterance



Joined: 02 Aug 2018
Posts: 55
Location: On the road

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered leaving teaching all together? I certainly have.

In this day and age, the notion of a job for life or even working in a particular area for all of your working life might be a little outdated.

Take EFL as an example. It was booming in the 90s and even in the 00s as well, but, due to a variety of reasons, it's stagnating now. One might have to specialize in a particular area of EFL, upgrade qualifications in a certain area or perhaps leave EFL teaching and start a different career if the re-training costs are worth it in the long-run.

Naturally, the new career should be in an area where job security or job availability is high and it should also be considered whether you're "over the hill" by employers. It seems EFL employers prefer, in general, younger teachers despite the fact they have much less classroom experience and knowledge of the language. However, if I was the DoS of a school and a 50-something or perhaps 40-something was applying for an entry-level job, I'd be asking myself some questions.
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Voyeur



Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very good points. I'm by no means set on certification. Until I get more feedback on the total cost involved, I can't really begin to judge.
I mean I'm 46 now. The total cost of the one year PGCE is estimated at $CAD 30,000 including living expenses, relocation to the UK or NZ, etc. But then I'd need another CAD$10,000 to act as a buffer and cover the costs of relocating to a new job after the PGCE. The online classes needed before my PGCE might cost as much as CAD$5000. And then the opportunity cost of not working in China for that year, where I save ~CAD$20,000 a year also must be factored in.
So imagine that I'd have $65,000 in the bank by age 48-49, invested and growing vs. having the PGCE and basically no money by age 49. That's a huge thing to consider.
I've considered and engaged in other careers, including recently online editing. But I really love being in the classroom. Teaching has been the only job that hasn't been a job--that I can really do well at, thus far.
But who knows, there may be something else. Finally, actually being able to return to Canada and get a teaching job given the current shortage is a bit of an illusion, as the way most teaching jobs in the West are constructed, I'd freaking hate them. I like a 90/10 hours in the classroom vs hours outside the classroom ration (though could settle at say 70/30). I hate paperwork and all that stuff. More importantly, I hate useless paperwork.
The West is trying to make changes that make teaching jobs more focused on just what is necessary for teaching the kids, with less bullcrap and unneeded duties and marking etc. But they are still a long ways off IMO.
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Voyeur



Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other factor to consider, for anyone reading this and in a similar boat, is that the contacts I've reached out to (headmasters, experienced veterans, etc.) have told me that if one wants to keep teaching overseas (ESL or otherwise) from ages 55-70, while still being able to bank $15k-20k a year, one really will need 3 things: (1) a Western teaching cert., (2) mobility: the ability and willingness to move around to whatever country (including international schools in said countries) in the world is willing to employ you; and (3) to be in not just good, but impressive physical shape: muscular arms, low body fat percentage, flat stomach, etc. And no obvious bad habits like smoking of excessive drinking.

So things to consider.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyeur wrote:
The contacts I've reached out to (headmasters, experienced veterans, etc.) have told me that if one wants to keep teaching overseas (ESL or otherwise) from ages 55-70, while still being able to bank $15k-20k a year, one really will need 3 things: (1) a Western teaching cert., (2) mobility: the ability and willingness to move around to whatever country (including international schools in said countries) in the world is willing to employ you; and (3) to be in not just good, but impressive physical shape: muscular arms, low body fat percentage, flat stomach, etc. And no obvious bad habits like smoking of excessive drinking.

Seriously... Even a 70-year-old male with a physique rivaling Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson and a face sculpted by the world's best plastic surgeon isn't immune from the host country's mandatory retirement age. Those headmasters, experienced veterans, et al, claiming expats can certainly work until age 70 have no control over visa regs and labor laws. Then there's the competition from qualified, experienced young western teachers with fresh ideas and techie skills to fill those international school slots.

Be realistic about your age-related overseas teaching expectations; there are some aspects you have no control over.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyeur wrote:
I've considered and engaged in other careers, including recently online editing. But I really love being in the classroom. Teaching has been the only job that hasn't been a job--that I can really do well at, thus far.
....
As the way most teaching jobs in the West are constructed, I'd freaking hate them. I hate paperwork and all that stuff. More importantly, I hate useless paperwork.

This is puzzling; you hate the administrative expectations, government standards, and structure that come with teaching. Yet that's generally the norm for working in the better international schools abroad.

If you love being in a classroom but abhor the administrative responsibilities, think about volunteer teaching when you return to Canada. Focus on finding a career in a field that will carry you into your golden, post-expat years. During your free time, you can teach ESL to adult newcomers to Canada via a nonprofit organization, or you can volunteer as an after-school literacy tutor at one of the local k12 schools. These roles don't require "paperwork and all that stuff."
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Unheard Utterance



Joined: 02 Aug 2018
Posts: 55
Location: On the road

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyeur wrote:
All very good points. I'm by no means set on certification. Until I get more feedback on the total cost involved, I can't really begin to judge.
I mean I'm 46 now. The total cost of the one year PGCE is estimated at $CAD 30,000 including living expenses, relocation to the UK or NZ, etc. But then I'd need another CAD$10,000 to act as a buffer and cover the costs of relocating to a new job after the PGCE. The online classes needed before my PGCE might cost as much as CAD$5000. And then the opportunity cost of not working in China for that year, where I save ~CAD$20,000 a year also must be factored in.
So imagine that I'd have $65,000 in the bank by age 48-49, invested and growing vs. having the PGCE and basically no money by age 49. That's a huge thing to consider.
I've considered and engaged in other careers, including recently online editing. But I really love being in the classroom. Teaching has been the only job that hasn't been a job--that I can really do well at, thus far.
But who knows, there may be something else. Finally, actually being able to return to Canada and get a teaching job given the current shortage is a bit of an illusion, as the way most teaching jobs in the West are constructed, I'd freaking hate them. I like a 90/10 hours in the classroom vs hours outside the classroom ration (though could settle at say 70/30). I hate paperwork and all that stuff. More importantly, I hate useless paperwork.
The West is trying to make changes that make teaching jobs more focused on just what is necessary for teaching the kids, with less bullcrap and unneeded duties and marking etc. But they are still a long ways off IMO.


That's EXACTLY what I mean. People need to factor in the cost of doing the course and living expenses and compare that to what you'd have had in the bank after completing the course. Is the expense worth it? I don't think so.
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Voyeur



Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:

This is puzzling; you hate the administrative expectations, government standards, and structure that come with teaching. Yet that's generally the norm for working in the better international schools abroad.

If you love being in a classroom but abhor the administrative responsibilities, think about volunteer teaching when you return to Canada. Focus on finding a career in a field that will carry you into your golden, post-expat years. During your free time, you can teach ESL to adult newcomers to Canada via a nonprofit organization, or you can volunteer as an after-school literacy tutor at one of the local k12 schools. These roles don't require "paperwork and all that stuff."


There are gradations here. As we all know, the term "International School" has many meanings in practice. On one end of the continuum, it's just a misleading marketing label. On the other end, it's a school that truly teaches a Western Curriculum with all the Western educational administrivia this can entail.
But there is a wide grey zone in the middle. For example, I know of International Schools in some countries where they will only hire licensed teachers, but have ESL-levels of administrative requirements; and they are the only options in such countries that offer decent earning and savings potential. In terms of extending an expat teaching career, one could age out of China, but have employment options in other countries at ages 60, 65 or even 70, at schools that don't have a large administrative burden, but still absolutely require a teaching license.
As for why I don't volunteer teach, it's because I've wasted a lot of my life and savings like many veteran ESLers, and may need to try to keep working until the day I die!
Obviously, there's a lot of complexity here, and I don't expect anyone to come up with easy answers. However, I think there are quite a few ESL veterans in my unfortunate situation who are now 'growing up' and facing the somewhat imminent issue of how to keep earning a living for as long as they can given the possibility of ageing out of the easy money in China. Or wanting to find a way back home. Etc.
So perhaps this thread will provide a place to share ideas.
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Voyeur



Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:

Seriously... Even a 70-year-old male with a physique rivaling Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson and a face sculpted by the world's best plastic surgeon isn't immune from the host country's mandatory retirement age. Those headmasters, experienced veterans, et al, claiming expats can certainly work until age 70 have no control over visa regs and labor laws. Then there's the competition from qualified, experienced young western teachers with fresh ideas and techie skills to fill those international school slots.

Be realistic about your age-related overseas teaching expectations; there are some aspects you have no control over.


No doubt. There are no certainties here. Just playing the odds and improving them as best they can.
And anything can change. Suddenly.
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Voyeur



Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unheard Utterance wrote:

That's EXACTLY what I mean. People need to factor in the cost of doing the course and living expenses and compare that to what you'd have had in the bank after completing the course. Is the expense worth it? I don't think so.


Yep. One has to make realistic calculations for sure, with no certainty about anything to be found.
I appreciate your groundedness.
I teach SAT prep, for example; despite never having taken the test as a Canadian. I'm quite good at it, and one thing I could do is simply brush up on the math section and take the test a few times. I'm pretty sure I could get a 1600 given a few goes (there's some luck involved in getting perfect--we all make silly mistakes).
I could get a perfect SAT test score and just become a full-time SAT tutor, which is one of the few types of online teaching that pays quite well if you can get a following. I'm generally good at all types of test. Take the GRE, get another great score. Expand. Nobody ages out of online test tutoring work. You can even do it from a cheap country like Cambodia that offers indefinite tourist visas. (And where that $65,000 I'd save would go a long, long way!)
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyeur wrote:
In terms of extending an expat teaching career, one could age out of China, but have employment options in other countries at ages 60, 65 or even 70, at schools that don't have a large administrative burden, but still absolutely require a teaching license.

Since you seem adamant that there are both 1) governments that provide working visas to expats ages 60-70; and 2) k12 international schools that consistently hire senior citizens over young, qualified teachers, I suggest you start compiling a list of those countries where this is the norm before bumping your qualifications. Hopefully, those countries and legal teaching situations (if they exist) will be places where you'd want to work.

and wrote:
As for why I don't volunteer teach, it's because I've wasted a lot of my life and savings like many veteran ESLers, and may need to try to keep working until the day I die!

You misunderstood me. I was referring to working a regular full-time, bill-paying job in a viable career field in Canada while volunteering 1-2 hours a week as an ESL teacher to refugees/immigrants. It would give you that classroom experience you enjoy without the administrative paperwork.
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Voyeur



Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try to be more careful nomad, as I think you are providing useful advice and we may be in danger of talking past one another.
I'm not adamant about anything, and still just exploring the situation. I would not want anyone else who comes to this thread to get the wrong ideas about what levels of certainty I have.

This, however, was an interesting site:

https://www.internationalschoolsreview.com/nonmembers/age-article.htm

There are chances to keep teaching overseas past 60 or even 65, but as was mentioned, the odds get slimmer each year; and you will likely have to keep trading down in terms of location and job quality.

One can maximize those odds, but if they still remain highly stacked against you, is it really worth a lot of effort and expense to maximize them?

If I want to keep teaching for the next 20 years, my best bet is by far to get licensed fast, go back home and teach there, accepting all the administration requirements etc. I get that. Overseas teaching tends to hit a wall before teaching in one's home country does.
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isitts



Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I would probably invest the $40k for my retirement. There are plenty of interesting teaching jobs in China (like the one you have) that don’t require higher credentials. When I was teaching in Shenzhen last year, there were plenty of older teachers (like, in their 50s) who were not having a difficult time getting hired. And I’ve read on other threads here that people can work past 60 in China …if they were already there before turning 60.

I remember in 2011 here in K-land, people asserting that higher credentials were the way to job security…until universities started cutting salaries and a Master’s made you overqualified for other jobs…until those schools changed their minds and said, “We’ll accept your Master’s…but we’ll pay you the same as teachers without one.”

Not saying getting higher credentials is a bad thing. But you need to consider…well, the things that other posters have mentioned. I would add that in my experience, most of the people I’ve met (or whose posts I’ve read) that saw fit to get higher credentials (be it an MA or getting certified in their home country) really never gave it a second thought. They were set on that path and wanted to move up in the teaching field.

Still, I’d be lying if said I wouldn’t be tempted to get higher credentials if I suddenly had $40k thrown my way. If most MA’s cost around $60k, that means I’d only have to pay back $20k….I mean that only takes two years to pay back…on a run of the mill salary for someone without the MA.

Also, you mention only wanting the MA for the Middle East. But I’m pretty sure China likes those degrees, too. It could open doors there.

Well, I’m at about 300 words, so…
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isitts



Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for getting certified in your home country…that’s cool, too. …thought it would be a different work environment. I can’t speak much about it since I never got certified…but I had started to take one of those alternative routes to certification and…I really didn’t like the politics that would have been involved working in an American public school. I might have ended up with better job security, but I don’t think teachers live all that well off financially in the US. Not sure about Canada.

I liked (at the time I was looking into the alternative route program) that I would have the option of working in international schools overseas. Though…I’ve since met certified teachers overseas that deliberately avoid working in international schools. To each their own.

For any of these decisions you have to make…you’ll know what’s important by what you do…not what you think about doing.

Semi-full disclosure: I’m barely into my 40s, so I’ve also been hemming and hawing about getting more credentials. But I still don’t see it as a practical or necessary option. But I haven’t thrown out the idea entirely.

Anyway, good luck with your decision.
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