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Non-Native Speakers in TEFL
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:04 pm    Post subject: Why person must be more respected with degree Reply with quote

This is a question for Welshy


I am new in this forum, so I would request all of you to forgive me if I will be out of topic.

Shortly I checked this topic and I am a bit surprised since persons with degrees must be somehow more privileged to get a job. But that is not true, since there are persons who are more capabale to do some jobs without degree and even more better. Why is that? You see, they are having expiriance and knowledge what is as well one of the conditions that are underlined in the vacancies.
I agree that person can get much easier a job with than without degree, but I have example in my family my aunt is having the highest degree from mycrobiology still she is not doing her job and she has problems beacuse of that degree.
She is 50 yrs of age and still doing a job that is not her real job, or my mom is proffessional in her job but she is not as well respected. Again the same question WHY?

I will give you answer because people are not respecting degree or diploma, they only respect you by connections, family relation, love relations and how much your pocket is deep.

So tell me what is wrong if person does not have degree or diploma, see that even without diploma persons can achieve whatever they want on this or other way.

And the last thing is what if person is not having enough money to pay university, if it is not possible to get in the university that he or she wants, just becuase he or she does not belong to the line of "blue blood".

My opinion is that person must be respected because of personallity not because of the diploma or degree. Personally I know people who are not armed with diplomas or degrees, but they are having more wisdom and they are more capable to do some things without diploma.

So, as I said this is my first time in this forum so I hope I was not too offending.

Best regrads.
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dduck



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 422
Location: In the middle

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:12 pm    Post subject: I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. Reply with quote

Quote:
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain


I agree with you completely, Nina. Having a degree doesn't make you a good teacher; having a BA in Education might be a different point. Smile

The bottom line is that having a degree proves to employers that the person has some measure of competence. Not having one doesn't make you any less competent - it means you have to show your competence in other ways.

In my previous line of work - software development - there were two main criteria that employers were interested in: a qualification and experience. Still, even with a long proven record of experience some thick-headed employers would still reject staff without a degree. There's no accounting for other people's stupidity - only your own Wink

Iain
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Duck

thank you for sharing same opinion and i agree with you, what proves that we all over the world can share the same opinion not fight against each other Smile

with or without degree we ar humans and there ar only two groups of people good and bad
Smile
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Mr. Irish,

I am very happy to see that people understand what I want to say.
I am not ashmed to tell that I am from small country called Bosnia. Probably, all of you heard about this country due to war issue. At this moment I will not talk about war, I will talk about situation that is currently here. Unemployment is very high, and I do belong to this group.
My qualification is not caunted by degrees and diplomas, just by expiriance and skills. I have graduated Economy Secondary School long time ago, and because of war I could not finish or to be more precise accomplish my dream which is Law University or currently Economy. I worked for many years, and I saw many people with diplomas but they are not having job, question WHY? It is very simple, because some of them or most of them are not sharing the same political opinion, or not having various relations (those relations are known to all of us, of course!!!). So, tell me or this is question for all forum, what diploma can do or not in such or similar situations.
I cannot speak about point that we have forgein teacher, since I am not in such a situation, but hold on that is against person who is from particular country, question WHY?
Think about it, in any country is unemployment either high or low, depends on government or inflation, anyway in any country there are very well educated persons who can teach your kids about certain subject, specially since that teacher is coming from the same country. I cannot teach or I could teach kids from different country, but it is question how much I know about the habits, culture, system of that country. Even countries in Europe are different so which person you would prefer to teach your kids, the one, which is from your country or not.
I understand that people following own dreams and going to other countries to earn money and make own life better (honestly if someone give me opportunity to go now from here, I would accept it without double thoughts), but to teach children big NO. What if something happens to a kid and am guilty, I do not know about the Law, system and I am in trouble. SIR, THANK YOU FOR KIND OFFER, BUT BIG NO.


Once again, this is not against any person only my opinion, so I will be very happy to hear your opinion on this small democratic opinion.

Thank You Very Much Very Happy
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Welshy



Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:31 pm    Post subject: For Nina from Welshy Reply with quote

Nina,

You have made some very interesting points. I have also met some very intelligent people who, for some reason or other, didn't have the opportunity to go to university. Over here in the UK, it is very expensive to go to university now. Getting a degree will mean heavy debts, which will have to be paid of over the years.

The Trinity TESOL Certificate is of a high enough level to test student competence. On the course I participated in, many people had degrees, some didn't. I don't mean to sound to sound blunt here, but the ones who didn't reach the required standard were soon weeded out. Ironically, three people failed the grammar test; they all had degrees!

I also know some people who can study to pass exams, but don't have enough common sense to fight their way out of a paper bag. Let's face it, the best teachers are, and always will be, those with life experience. A degree means that a person can study which, as you imply Nina, doesn't always mean that they are the best person for the job.

Welshy
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:38 am    Post subject: [i][b]Wind of change take us on different roads of life[/b][ Reply with quote

Hello me again, Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Irish and Welshy, it was very nice from you to give me such a comment though on the beginning I underllined that I might go off topic thank you for bringing me back.

I do agree with both of you, only thing I would say, probably you understood that I do agree with topic to have dipoma or degree but still I do not believe in such honest way for getting of job. I am not underestimating any person, who is studying that is as well sort of job just in this case person involves little gray cells, insomnia, lots of coffee, nervousness, some moments of disappointments, moments of giving up from everything. I know all that and I do respect because life is a bit difficult for everyone. Probably it was brave thing for me to say all that what I said (since I am not so brave person Embarassed ), just because all of you most probably are having degrees. On the end I like that, however I can get some wisdom from all of and you can understand my point of view. About test that Welshy mentioned, test is test and it is the same for every student who passes will get result and who not it goes vice versa, like everything in life.
By this I do not underestimate either Irish or Welshy diploma, but I do not justify myself in this topic too.
See, I am not telling that all of you shall feel pitty for me because am in this situation, I know that every country is having different system, which are sometimes similar or not.
Talking about foreign teachers, of course that I will try to adopt myself to the system of certain country, and that would not be a problem for me because I have been working for UN last 8 yrs as nurse (during the war, my director at that time was Pakistani, since we had UNPROFOR, as it is very obvious and you know that i do not have any connections with doctors, but they thought me about certain things) and language assistant. As language assistant I worked for International Police Task Force and I learned a lot about all countries in the world.
By this small summary, I can tell you that I do not have problems to adopt myself to any system, but still......... I do not think I will be teacher of children, though that is honorable job.
As you know there are so many replies on this topic, on the most of us can agree and should not, that is still up to us. Each of us looking differently on each problem.
I do not want to sound like "Ohh... look at him, he has diploma, it seems that he is now I AM THE ONE", no, that is not true.
First, person shall finish university with love, not "Listen I have that man u know him, he will help me" or "my parents told me that I have to finish it". NO, none shall not make such mistake because we are persons with different needs, backgrounds etc. Or to finish university because that is only way to prove him or herself.
Conitnuation of this could be "Be yourself" but listen inner sense.
OK, i will try to give you my final thought , which will be again out of topic but I know I will get reply and I am looking forward to read it Very Happy .
With or without diploma or degree we have to fight, not to allow to any person to influence on us, finish the university but do not stab others or underestimate persons without low education.
Be good, and others will be good to you, help them if you can but take care of your back.
Give chance to a person without diploma, he or she might have more wisdom then person which spent all life with books.
System is system, since ancient times and until this time every political system was failing starting from tirany, socialisam, capitalisam or democracy. We have to try to live with this system, though it is sometimes difficult, we have to resist to the beast called connection, and to win. That is why this topic or any other topic is having a sense of fight, because discussions or topics are part of us in which we are showing how much we are capable to understand, tolerate other people.

Topics are part of life and for a sure we have to have a warrior inside us to win all this.

I could speak more but I will let all of you to give me comments on this and lets have a good time, not to party in this forum but to have sort of discussion where we will try to bring up good conclusion. I know that conclusion will not have influence on real situation, but at least we will know that we have someone who shares the same or similar opinion, even vice versa so on that way we will train our brain to function and to search for good comments. Very Happy
Till next reply stay well and take care

NINA
[/i][/quote]
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gordosmith



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 5:54 pm    Post subject: Could Not agree with you guys more Reply with quote

Gents:
I agree. People need to do their homework, think before they write or speak, and not expect a free lunch. Take care, Gordo.
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi people,

am back agian. This time I will not have comment on our topic since am in hurry.

I know that you missed me I missed you all with all these comments so as soon as possible I will conitnue with my strange comments and start to chase right conclusions.

Do not cry for me I will be back Very Happy

Yours Nina
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:18 pm    Post subject: Calm down Reply with quote

Hello to all of you,



There is no need to be agressive or insulting because we have different opinions or misunderstand the same things. It wont be nice to have the same opinion because we will not have a time for arguments.

Initially our topic was about foreign teachers and diplomas.
Either to accept foreign teacher or not etc.

So english language is all around us, where we look there is english so it is ok since english is first UN language, and there is no need to talk about this, but question is what about foreign teachers and diplomas or degrees.
Why people ar not respecting more those without degrees and why they ar not getting jobs.
That was our disccussion without any insults so i wish to read new comments.

And please be nice, this is just nice time share opinions with all world.

Till next time stay well and do not argue.
Very Happy Very Happy
Take care and have a good time, keep smiling Very Happy

PS. sorry i would like to support Mr. Roger and his idea but I do not have time, but I am gonna do it next time

Nina
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Irish, hello Nina, hello all!

Yes, Irish, that was an excellent point - Glenski answering all and sundry on this forum, yet nobody really caring whether they are suitable for a Japanese school. A FAQ could take a lot of unnecessary queries and replies off here - and bad vibes too!

To Nina, I have to say your comments were like a fresh wind dissipating stale odours!
Your bad luck is that you are a Bosnian with excellent English communication skills. I don't doubt that you can share them with other non-natives.
Unfortunately for you, you can't get a job in most countries without at least a solid professional teacher's background. In East Asia, people like you have to forge documents. At least, get a respectable cert!
Well, you see this is the unfairness - if you are American or Aussie, you don't necessarily need to have any proof to corroborate your claim that you can teach English. The assumption is that you only need to practise oral English - and for that purpose, a native speaker is just about sufficiently credentialled!
It is amazing to see what kinds of people come here to "teach" English!
There are quite a number of "refugees" from the law of their own country! Don't think I am making this up - the secrets some of us are privy to are bewildering! A few years ago, an American of Italian ancestry was finally caught working in Shenzhen! He had been on the run for a couple of years. He was a wanted man for a multi-million US-dollar swindle.
Evidently, he was not working here for the money.
Others are, though!
There are drunkards of tender and mature ages that would find it difficult to land themselves a job back home! For many, teaching English is an escape from selling hamburgers!
The minimum hourly wage in the USA is... is it US$ 5-plus? Well, if you have not bothered ("it is too expensive!") to upgrade yourself educationally, then your mind can easily be made up - either it is a regular job such as selling hamburgers and working 40 hours a week, or it is going overseas to teach.

Now a rhetorical question: Do you want your child to be exposed to people like these?
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:40 pm    Post subject: Hello Reply with quote

Hello again

Well it seems that all of us ar going from topic not only me Very Happy Engllish is English but we have to try to find the best why how to use this language, by which for your information we ar chatting.

Lets come back to regular topic

I know that the situation is not wonderful all over the world but lets try to be nice and polite while we ar chatting with others

So, please lets behave on nice manners and without insluts, hard words, bragging with grammar and telling u know I AM THE BEST, I have seen such persons. OK RESPECT!!! Both do not boder us with perfect english, person learns all life and still dies without any knowledge

I do respect every opinion but I will disagree on nice way like mom thought me.

All of us ar having different lives and only what we shall do is stick to the topic and not to inslut any other person with or without degree though in one segment i will disagree.

Anyway I do not have much time to chat I wish all the best to all world and lets live in world without anger, rage and war.

Have a nice time Very Happy
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:44 am    Post subject: "InSLUTS"???? Reply with quote

Nina,
I am not really trying to be unkind,but you were contemplating teaching English,correct?Well,again,I am not trying to be unkind,but after looking at your latest post,I am wondering if that is the kind of English you would teach your students? I mean,"boder" instead of "bother"?I I do not think people are "picking on you"...but there is a legitimate question concerning what kind of English you would actually be teaching.That is in no way a personal criticism.I think it goes back to the fact that a lot of people,in places everywhere,when they find themselves at a loss for other options,decide to "teach English".This is a huge problem in this field right now.
Best of luck in the future.Perhaps you have other options. Smile
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Ann



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if people ever heard of "typos."
I am not defending anyone here, but I have observed this recurrent problem on several forums. People usually are relaxed and in a "chat" mode when they post messages on an internet board, so why should we pick on unnecessary details? Just because I am an English teacher doesn't mean I will cross my t's and dot my i's all the time.
Phew!
Stop judging people from the few alpahabets that appear on a screen.
To illustrate my point, I remember working in Paris some years ago and posting messages on an internet forum, but I could never get the keyboard straight and boy, did those clocks tick away, eating up my francs, so I just posted a message and never bothered to check the spellings...and sometimes, not even the grammatical structure of a sentence. Gee whiz!
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 3:51 am    Post subject: Yeah,True...We All Make Typos.....But Reply with quote

Hey,Ann,I agree with you completely.We all make typos,especially when we are paying for the use of a computer and we are in a hurry.But if you check her post carefully( and again,I am not meaning to be unkind),you will see that the problem goes a lot deeper than a few typos.I am not trying to insult anyone,but it only makes sense that someone contemplating teaching English has some ability in using English,although I know there are people teaching in this field who lack that ability.Again,I am not talking about a few typos.Everybody makes a typo or two or three now and then. Smile
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BNIX


Thank you for your remarkable thought, for your infromation I am not English Teacher. This english that you read is my own practice. I never had English in my school, I learned by myself and of course so many years of practice.

I got into this forum because I like to share my opinion not to be on english test.

For BODER I found it when I posted my reply so I could not go back and correct it.

If you as english teacher, but no offence, chasing mistakes of students then what you would say if I tell you that my ex-chief from USA had so many mistakes but none told him you do not know english.

For me right now is important that all of you can understand me, even I am trying my level best to be good not the best in English.

English as language is not my mother language but still I am putting so many efforts to pick some things to improve my skills.

For me, teacher is not person, as strict guard during school class, teacher is person who is there to teach me and sometimes to even encourage me for some things.

But still I wonder whether I shall countinue in this forum or not, because here people are chasing grammatical mistakes but not looking into the point how to improve personal behaviour.


Best Regards.
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