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The Chinese Protests
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AndyH



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 417

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your perspective, Horizontal Hero! Although I'm neither Chinese nor Japanese, I won't pretend to be unbiased in the matter. I have had many Chinese friends, and wish the best for their country, but I cannot respect what "they" have done to Tibet, nor what "their" government was allowed to get away with against their own people. Japanese society is far from perfect, and I really wish Koizumi would do more to make the Chinese and Korean people feel that Japan is truly remorseful for what the previous generations did, but the issue of a textbook is miniscule compared to the invasion and occupation of Tibet, the Cultural Revolution, and the repression of pro-democracy activists, all of which happened in recent times.
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Lister100



Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain wrote:

"Discussion of any darker parts of history such as Japan's involvement in the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere (sometimes known as WWII) or the US's Jim Crow laws are not hypothetical and I hadn't realized that anyone would mistake it as such."

I hope you're not implying that my thread using the word "hypothetical" was in regards to WWII because that would be down right condescending. (edit) History does work in hypotheticals when we're dealing with abstract causes in certain events, but not death tolls in WWII. However, misrepresentations are common to the Holocaust denier crowd (which is what this thread is all about) but my "hypothetical" had nothing to do with this.

My "hypothetical" was in regards to the speculation of possible future scenarios that might come, directly or indirectly, as a result of the text book issue or others like it. In which case, so long as I'm working here and being paid in Yens you can count me on the Japanese side. Yes, I'm a mercenary and I know there are others here like me. Those that aren't might have other reasons be it J. friends, family, or love of the country. No shortage of vested interests to people living and working in Japan. However, speaking for or against Japan doesn't add up to a hill of beans since no one here is in position to make a difference anyway. Yes I believe the text books are scandalous and no I don't want Japan to suffer for it. Does it matter what I think, NO! But its fun to think so sometimes isn't it?

If your post was in response to another's misuse of that thread then disregard this message. It still stands for anyone that might confuse mine with that other possible poster.


Last edited by Lister100 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:46 pm; edited 5 times in total
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Birddog 3344

Quote:
but slavery was 500 years ago and America is still fighting that battle.


Could you explain what you mean here.
Slavery was much more recent in history than 500 years ago. But you are correct in sayingt that America still fights an internal war due to the seperation of people that slaverery caused.
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Birdog3344



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Osaka, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but slavery was 500 years ago and America is still fighting that battle.


Quote:
Could you explain what you mean here.


I guess I meant that slavery is a 500 year old institution and that the nation is still torn in many ways. If a single country is still mending over a century old issue (for understandable reason, mind you), it seems reasonable that events that took place 60 years ago are still relevant for two rival nations.
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Horizontal Hero



Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2492
Location: The civilised little bit of China.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyH wrote:
Thanks for your perspective, Horizontal Hero! Although I'm neither Chinese nor Japanese, I won't pretend to be unbiased in the matter. I have had many Chinese friends, and wish the best for their country, but I cannot respect what "they" have done to Tibet, nor what "their" government was allowed to get away with against their own people. Japanese society is far from perfect, and I really wish Koizumi would do more to make the Chinese and Korean people feel that Japan is truly remorseful for what the previous generations did, but the issue of a textbook is miniscule compared to the invasion and occupation of Tibet, the Cultural Revolution, and the repression of pro-democracy activists, all of which happened in recent times.


Actully I don't pretend my opinion is unbiased by any means. I know very little about Japan, so cannot comment too much about the current issues there, including the text book controversy. But I am not suggesting for a minute that Japan is without its role here; and any text which potentially distorts the mind of the young should be, at the very least, heavily condemned.

I just get tired of all the political BS in China. Everything in the media has a spin, and I just get sick and tired of hearing about the damn war. It was 60 years ago for Christ's sake, and it is still front page news! - sometimes up to four articles at the same time of the home page of one newspaper web site here. The rest is mostly BS about Taiwan or the US. I lived in Taiwan, and was totally shocked at what I saw printed in the Chinese press about TW. The truth is that there is no "news"as such in China - just propaganda.

The ordinary Chinese people don't have a chance. I know that they are mostly kind-hearted people, and very friendly. But they are also very, very naive and gullible. That naivity is perhaps the most charming thing about the Chinese (I certainly appreciated it after returning from a few weeks holiday in S. Korea!), but it is also the most alarming thing - like when you hear Chinese students saying that the CIA controls Taiwan, or that the western media is controlled by the American government (yet seemingly totally unaware that their own media is completely government- controlled, or that there are more journalists in jail in China than anywhere else in the world).

Or that Japan is preparing to invade. "We must to war!" as one young chap recently stated. It's scary, really. The word brainwashed comes to mind.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly events that took place 60 years ago are as relevent today as they were then. People are still alive that have the scars from these events.
Does anyone think any of the comfort women live a day without thinking of what happened to them during these years.
The behaviour of both of these countries is terrible. I can understand it from China being a communist country with a culture of corruption. But Japan is a difeent story. Japan is a modern country and their citizens are highly educated. This modification of the school textbooks is a crime.
I have met many mature Japanese who don't understand the war or their conflicts with China. Some still have no idea why America decided to drop a bomb on Hiroshma. The books need to be corrected as the healing process can only begin once the people understand what happened.
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mandrake



Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but has anyone on the list actually read the textbooks. Can you make specific references to the parts and expressions. It seems that no-one is able to do this, which makes this whole thread a bit strange in that rather than address actual educational matter it has morphed into a discussion of hypotheticals. It is interesting that the textbook issue has not been taken up, but I can only hazard a guess that no-one has actually read one. Myself included.

Whilst claims that Japan must apologize and the textbooks are terrible. Has anyone actually read them? Indeed, seen as the 2006 edition is not yet available to me I would be most interested if someone could provide some factual stuff rather than hypothesis.

On top of this point are two further points. One is that Boards of Education choose the textbooks and so just because a publisher has made a book, does not mean that it is going to widely disseminated throughout Japan. Secondly, if a school is forced to use this textbook by the board of education, can we so readily assume that the class teachers are not going to elaborate on the contents of the textbook.
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Captain Onigiri



Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 103
Location: fly-over land

PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Lister100:
You've made me re-read the entire thread! arrgh! Based on this research I can say that my snide post did not refer to any of your comments but to other posts.

In general:
This thread has gone on for six pages and I think most of it was consumed by rabbit chasing about the military strengths of various powers and the constructive comments have long since past. So let me summarize what I've learned so far.
1. This conflict isn't even a blip on the radar of conciousness for Japanese high schoolers.
2. We don't know what the textbooks really say because of barriers of access to the actual textbooks and the barrier of language.
3. Few of us feel comfortable (again that pesky barrier of language and restraints of subject matter) discussing this subject matter in class.
4. Japan and China have an extremely complicated relationship whose tainted roots stretch to WWII and beyond.
5. A bunch of technical military knowlege that I'll probably forget by next week.
My conclusion is that the original question posted has turned out to be imponderable with the resources we have at this time.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mandrake

You do not need to read any textbooks to establish that the information is not there. Next time your walking down the street ask any Japanese person what they understand of the war.
I have quizzed many and they have little understanding. Many Japanese people I know first experience the war from Hollywood movies. They have so little understanding of the war I have seen them attempt to walk into a RSL. Not understanding a reason as to why they would not be welcome.
Many have no idea why America dropped a bomb on Hiroshma.
An old Japanese man once told me that during the war he thought Australians to be a wild animal and was not even sure if our blood was red. He was trained that we were to be killed like a dog, without respect.

He has lived in Australia for a long time and now he realises that he was so wrong in his thinking and even he can not understand how we are so accepting of him. He was very emotional when he spoke of this as he was holding my Gran mothers hand. He wants the truth to be told.

As I said before the healing processs can only begin once peole admit to what has been done. There was no justification for the Japanese entering the war and hence the government is still embarrassed for the fact that it happened. This is the reason textbooks are censored and will continue to be so.
I'd be interested to the Japanese version of the movie Pearl Harbour, there was a small outcry in Australia when people were told a modified version of this movie was to be released in Japan.
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Certainly events that took place 60 years ago are as relevent today as they were then. People are still alive that have the scars from these events


Actually, I think that whatever happened 60 years is not relevant anymore. If we always feel the need to punish and seek revenge, we just hurt ourselves even more. I can`t imagine how much pain the war victims felt, but I think the rule still holds strong. If you want to be free after the fact, you`ve gotta just let that feeling go (maybe impossible, but one can only hope). Nietzsche had a nice quote, something along the lines: "I can forgive easily what you`ve done to me, but that you would do it to yourself - how can I forgive that?"
The fact that people are refusing to look ahead (prefering to always react to the past, which itself doesn`t even exist BTW) is relevant, but in a bad (and futile) way. The past cannot be changed. Period. The real question is do we have any reason to believe it will happen again (Japan invading China and killing more people etc.), and of course the answer is no. If Japan were trying to repeat what they did, that would be something different altogether, but Japan is a different country now. Therefore I feel the current issue is China`s fault - they are the only ones who want it to be an issue. If Japan refuses to admit they were wrong in WWII, that`s Japan`s problem, but China could rise above. Instead they are just poisoning themselves with all that venom. And they refuse to drop it, so it continues on forever. That`s the real problem IMO.

Quote:
I just get sick and tired of hearing about the damn war.


Me too... it`s so tiresome. Just using the past as an excuse.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What it boils down to is one group of people just want another group of people to say sorry. The group of people who should be saying sorry do not have the dignity or honor to do it.
Until this happens there will always be hatred and conflict. Eveyone needs to live with that.
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kakapo



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 20
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the Independent via The New Zealand Herald:

www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10121923
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Birdog3344



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Location: Osaka, Japan

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand how anyone can read that and say simly, "it's all history, we should look forward, not backwards." To suggest that the Chinese should just 'get over it' is naive at best. The Communnist government's propaganda aside, these were horrendous crimes and can't easily be forgoten. Imagine you are the grandchild of one of the thousands of women who were raped during those years, or the wife of a man dissected alive. I think a hint of animosity is not uncalled for, no? We can't chalk this up to politics and ignore actual events, brush off history as being simply 'the past' without any relevance today. In fact, Japan would be doing itself a favor by handling the issue with more tact and understanding. The country sets itself up for ridicule by covering up its criminal past.
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Travel Zen



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 634
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not about the war.

The chinese gov is beating its chest for nationalism sake.

To divert its greed and uncaring for the people by giving them an outside enemy.

And so on.

Not really about 60 yrs ago.
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To suggest that the Chinese should just 'get over it' is naive at best


I think that to suggest that they ever will might be naive, but they definately should. Why do those Chinese people we see on TV hate (and I would say truly hate) the Japanese people so much? It`s that desire to punish that makes the Chinese so wrong . It is about far more than just history. The real criminals are dead and gone anyway. And I wouldn`t call politicians like Koizumi criminals -- maybe just insensitive at worst, but just typical politicians sounds more likely.
Basically, it`s an entirely different Japan -- Japanese people today are not guilty for what that happened. The criminals are already dead; that article says that Shiro Ishii died like 45 ago, and it`s probably the same with all the politicians/generals responsible for or connected to those atrocities. I don`t know of any war criminals still alive in Japan that could even be tried. Therefore I don`t think justice can be served, and in that sense I am forced to say the past really is irrelevant. Sad but true - yet time to move on (the Japanese government did apologise anyway for whatever that`s worth). I can`t think of any good alternatives. Keeping the issue alive (especially with such blind hatred and brainwashing) can only result in more atrocities someday.
Honestly, I don`t think those Chinese we saw "just wanted an apology", I think they want Japan to suffer in turn. That is petty, and vengeful, and indicative of China`s own shortcomings.
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