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How to combat circular logic
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Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Taiwan, at the moment

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:33 am    Post subject: ???? Reply with quote

squid"]ok, i'm going to have to support taoyuansteve all the way. sorry you guys who disagree, but i've seen far worse things in north american cities than here in taiwan. try walking in a downtown core of a major city in the states or canada, turn the corner and bam! you are right in the middle of strung out druggies who have been hooking all night just to get their next fix. They're either bent over in pain because they're coming off from their high or their eyes are glazed over because they've just taken their next hit.

You watch too much t. v.

i don't see that here in taiwan.

A.) Different drugs. go to night clubs. Walk around after dark near night clubs. K and E. Do your math.

B.) How naive. Because you don't see it means it isn't here? You don't see Lee Deng-hui much, do you? Is he not real? What about the myraid of drunks strung out all over Taipei? Are you naive enough to dismiss alcohol as a drug?

[quote]and to trinity: what do you know about chinese people or societies? You're cloaking your obvious racism with pseudo-intellectual BS. chinese societies need colonizers to be civilized? you come straight out of an 18th century travel narrative.quote]

What od you know? See my other post. I put up my bakcground now put up yours, or are you just out to point fingers without exposing what makes you "right?" I mean, after all that's what you're trying to prove.

Go to Hong Kong, Singapore, Macau, Malaysia, Taiwan, and China. Comapre the following:

Social welfware systems
Social responsibility/Personal liability
adherance to safety standards
Institurionalized racism
Civil Rights
Equal rights
Standard of living
Life expenctancy
Civil liberties granted to its people

Compare and contrast and do the math for us, on the forum. Don't side-step my direct issues. Dont' give me 'Well what about where you come from" because that place doesn't exist. I talk about WHERE I AM. This is my backyard. This is where I live and pay taxes (do you, or are you an illegal teacher?), and I have a right to care about where I live. I have the right to my opinions. Do you understand, or are you too far 'left' with your bleeding heart that your'e really "right," and therefore a defacto fascist?

As the saying goes, "put up or shut up." You raised issues. You wrote some 'checks," now let's see if you have the collateral to cash them. Fight my evil so-called "racism" with your "facts." I'm not a raicst, however. I don't hate the Chinese at all. Quite the contrary, actually, but you misconstrue genuine observations based upon experience with how I view a race. Societies do not define race. Races, however, can define societies, and in America, Canada, Japan, and Europe I can think of more than a few contributions that ethnically Chinese people have made for the betterment of mankind. So, stop behaving like a true racist out to lynch someone and share your "wisdom" throuhg more opinions. I only read attacks and very little of substance ot back your attacks up. This goes for you, Squid, and "Taoyuan Steve".

By the way: I SHUDDER to think Squid or TaoyuanSteve are teachers. To lable somone racist when they may be prejudgiced speaks in volumes about your vocabulary skills. I will admit I've become prejudgiced but I have not hatered towards Taiwanese/Mianland Chinese people.

Last edited by TheyCallMeTrinity on Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Taiwan, at the moment

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:39 am    Post subject: Well said, MissusFish Reply with quote

Sorry if I mangled your name. We have had different experiences and I agree with you on some things, but disagree with you on other points. Regardless, it is refreshing to see someone posting in a civil manner while offering up a lot of details to back up your feelings. I wish more people were mature enough to do the same.

(this is why you are a moderator, right? Very Happy )
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Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys!

It is pretty obvious that some of you were in a mood for tit-and-tat! I can empathise with all of you, really! I agree, Chinese are not rational (but when I wrote that in some publication that was being reviewed by an American I drew heavy flak!).
And, yes, Chinese can be very boorish and overbearing at the same time! Still, I am reasonably happy - not in Taiwan but in China! It is the worse of the two Chinese worlds! I only know Taiwan from a previous holiday visit - and I had found it a great getaway from mainland China!
Yet, I am confident life is getting better all the time - precisely because China has after long last begun opening itself up to the rest of us!

Still, the people in Taiwan are Chinese too. At least the majority. Do they have anything in common with Chinese from the PRC? Singapore? Hong Kong? Apart from the language, obviously...?

Probably yes.
Probably the fact that they are more individualistic than we are misled into believing. We tend to think: "Chinese - revolving around families, tribes and nation..." Also: "Strict hierarchies..."

True for the eye! It is for appearances, mainly, but functionally...?

Take a look at social cohesion: Some Belgian sinologue said Chinese societies are like sand hills. There is little cohesion between the grains of sand. A gust of wind, and the hill starts crumbling! See how they scramble and fight to get a seat on board a bus or an underground train in Hong Kong!
Over the border, in Shenzhen you will notice that many a boss from the interior will hire natives from his home province only! Clannishness!

Do you seriously expect people with these attributes to live up to our behavioral norms? Lining up behind counters... waiting their turn... paying on time, paying without being asked, just paying because it is TIME to pay your utilities...
No no no! In China, utilities charge you 2% to 5% for late payments - PER DAY! In one month, your previous month's power bill will set you back double the original amount! Because Chinese cannot be counted on paying on time. Bosses must hurt people where it hurts most!
Because people hardly have a common sense. They are born into a predator society, a society of opportunists. It is a society that reveres possessions over anything else. Money buys happiness. Chinese girls tell me a rich man is more likely to make them HAPPY. Happiness is easy to explain in such a society, easy enough to understand for peasants.
Things intellectual or even spiritual are frowned upon. Mayhbe less so in Taiwan. In Hong Kong? Many are nominally-Christian or Buddhist. I doubt that the majority understand the underlying principles of monotheist religions.
Consequently, Chinese are unsentimental. They migrate, leaving behind their more idyllic rural parts. They emigrate to greener pastures.
But often, they return. They will accept any foreign citizenship for purely prosaic and practical considerations - but they will not swear allegiance to another sovereign!
Because they never swear any allegiance in their lifetime! Yes, they learn at school - here in mainland China! - to say such niceties like "I love my homeland!" Or "I love Jiang ..." Does it enter their innermost core? Do they love their country as ardently as Romeo loved Juliet? I know from some insights that "love" as we practise it is hardly understood by Chinese. "Love" is what they have been conditioned to feel for their leaders and their country although they hardly love their fellow-countrypeople as they are competitors on the same turf, for jobs and for a livelihood that is not easy to get.
Their "love" is a highly idealised form of worship for their national origin, their ancestors and their current leaders. It is a cult.
Because of this, it is difficult for them to show their love in a more convincing way: showing respect to their compatriots no matter their social status. Care for the environment. Sympathy for the downtrodden, the innocent victims of justice and of crime (see how they gawk!).

It is all very shocking - but also enlightening. You must get used to these things, or else reconsider your role here!
After all, ours is a different culture, one that has evolved and been refined through the millenia and over many different national identities - from ancient Egypt and Babylon to Greece, Rome, to the Here and Now.
How does that differ from CHinese self-perception - "Middle Kingdom"?
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Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 256
Location: Taipei, TAIWAN

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way: I SHUDDER to think Squid or TaoyuanSteve are teachers. To lable somone racist when they may be prejudgiced speaks in volumes about your vocabulary skills.

Thought the same thing.
That's why I asked Steve if he even lived in Taiwan.

These responses that upset steve and Squid had nothing to do with racism.
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