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Flirting, Dating, Etc...
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leeroy



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 10:00 am    Post subject: Flirting, Dating, Etc... Reply with quote

(ahem - with hindsight, I'm getting rid of this)

Leeroy


Last edited by leeroy on Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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wOZfromOZ



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 272
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 11:42 am    Post subject: You're a champion ..........you haven't listened have you!! Reply with quote

Mate


leeroy baby.......
You're a champion...............you haven't listened have you!!!
You're a f....ing disgrace!

what a 'crock of' your students have got for a teacher!

........enough said!

wOZfromOZ
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dduck



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 422
Location: In the middle

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just like to make the observation that leeroy has managed to write in sentences and paragraphs and, it seems to me, he's making a serious point.

The only word I can think of to describe wOZfromOZ's comment is: verbage. Wink

Iain
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 11:24 pm    Post subject: thin ice Reply with quote

My point is that there are situations such as mine where no professionalism is being compromised by having a relationship outside the class. Naturally, there are common-sense rules which are obeyed. No blatant petting, or "seeing as you're my girlfriend you can go to Upper-Intermediate".

Leeroy,
In my opinion, you are incorrect. Your professionalism IS compromised by sheer virtue of dating a student. Just because your dates take place outside of the classroom doesn't make it any better. You run the risk of being seen by her classmates and/or your fellow staff. What will they think when they see you two together? Will the classmates act differently in class? Will they remain in class? Will they inform the management?

Consider this, too. If you two have any arguments, the emotions WILL be brought back into the classroom. That will be noticed. No matter how you try to hide your relationship in the classroom, it will show. And, God forbid that the two of you should break up, THAT sourness will also show. I've seen it happen.

Just because you say you won't advance her to the next level doesn't mean that you won't unconsciously show favoritism in the classroom. Even subtle things that you aren't aware of in passing comments are likely to be noticed.

Thin ice.


"I suspect though that most of the other contributors here are more experienced and qualified than I. Perhaps if I had a DELTA, MA and 10 years experience (and a job & salary appropiate to this) then I would feel the need to start behaving a little more "professionally". "

It doesn't take an advanced degree to realize how to behave professionally.


"I don't think there are many things you can generalise about when it comes to English Teaching - rules on dating students is one of them. "

There are PLENTY of things to generalize about when it comes to teaching! And, if you are going to break "rules" such as this one on dating, what other rules in life do you break just for the sake of your own pleasure? You admitted that you and a co-worker (dating a student at the time) said that such behavior was "bad". Besides the hypocritical nature of your co-worker, would you like to explain just what made you change that opinion?
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think, leeroy, it is easy enough to justify any behaviour. The most common justification is "someone else is doing it too" another common justification is " we are all adults" and "no one is getting hurt"
Being over 18 or 21 doesn't mean you or the person are acting in mature, adult ways.
Do you think it is okay for a doctor or psychiatrist to have a relation with their legally consenting patient. They used the same excuses, and then other peole had to try to mend the broken pieces. People get sick of this happening, and then start making laws to stop predators such as yourself. See Oz's post on the other thread.
Yes, you are a predator. I know because I know the predator lurking in myself. Give me a couple classes of 15 or 20 students , and we all could find willing victims. Why can't you find a girlfriend outside of class? Maybe because what the student is reacting to is not you as a person, but you as a teacher.
This is a quite common phenomnom. And if you take advantage of it, you're scum, plain and simple. But there is lots of scum in the world, and we are all scummy sometimes. I have done my fair share of scummy things, but I won't be so hypocritical as to try and justify these evil deeds.
If for some reason you find a person remarkable, and want to have a relationship, you wait until after you are no longer in a teacher/ student relationship to have anything but a plutonic relationship. I'm not judging you as a person, probably you're a better man than I. I have done many wrong things But I ask you think again. If you really like the girl, have her go to a different class. Why not?
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, Leroy, I noticed you were worried about YOUR possible embarrrassment. Very telling. What about your student? Do you think her pattern of life is really healthy? Or are you just taking advantage of her shortcomings (many possibilities)
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leeroy



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:14 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

(this one too)

Last edited by leeroy on Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Harry Swindells



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 39
Location: Warsaw,Poland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can not say that it is always wrong to date your students. If you can keep your private life your private life and you are not in a position of power over the student then it can work.

The first example that springs to my mind is from a university I used to work at. While I was there one of the other teachers was dating a student. He was 6 months younger than the student. 5 years later they are still together and she is now also teaching at the university. If he had never started to date his student he almost certainly would have left and the university would have lost an excellent teacher that they can not afford to replace.

The dating students issue is never black and white.

Harry
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arioch36



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Leroy, of course all of us older guys probably have a little jealousy hidden somewhere in our hearts. I wasn't singling you out as "sick" . Like I said, I have the predator in my heart. We all do. Just look at the words used to describe the situation. It is like we are a wolf and we see a flock of sheep, and think about which lamb is the juiciest. It is natural. Many bad things are natural. Either most or many of the people in your situation do not have a good heart when they go after a student. I believe this because I know me , and I have seen to many results of others, listened to them talk.
Oh, i also have a good friend who married someone who was his student...good marriage. I would have told him the same. Wait until she is not in your class.
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:38 am    Post subject: I Agree Completely with the Wiz..... Reply with quote

Anybody like Leeroy who is interested in"contemplating a fine p---- of Polish a--" and then POSTS it...is NOT a professional.I agree with the Wiz...such a guy is a disgrace and a sad commentary on some of the "teachers" in this "profession".You are supposed to be in this profession to teach,not"lust"after your students.You have a professional and moral reponsibility to respect your students.If you don't,you have no right to expect their respect and you have no business teaching.

Don't tell me"other people do it" as a form of rationalizing such behavior.That does not make it right.I was simply APPALLED by your post....even though I have been in this field for years and have seen a lot...
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: Abelard and Heloise Reply with quote

The situation of a teacher "crossing the line" of professional and moral behavior is certainly not a new one.

Abelard was a famous scholar and philosopher in the Middle Ages.One of his students was Heloise,brilliant and much younger than Abelard.Abelard resided with Heloise and her uncle.One thing led to another,as they say,and Abelard seduced Heloise,his student.The enraged uncle,who had seen his hospitality abused and his niece seduced by a man whom he had trusted implicitly and who was thought to be above reproach, arranged for some of his(the uncle's)cronies to waylay and emasculate Abelard.They really took things seriously back then.And dealt with things seriously.Of course,I am not advocating emascualtion in this day and age(there might be a few people out there who disagree with me,however).It just goes to show you that this is not a new problem.


As for teachers who might be "lusting" after their students(in their hearts or any other way)...I say LEAVE YOUR STUDENTS alone!There are plenty of other women (or men,as the case may be) wherever you are. aTry "dating"the traditional ways.Of course,you might have to learn the local language and customs,but that is all to the good, anyway.LEAVE YOUR STUDENTS ALONE,because:

1.It is basically unprofessional to become involved with your students.

2.You have been put in a position of trust.How would YOU feel if YOU had a daughter in some class and found out that the teacher you had placed your trust in was"hitting on " your daughter?

3.Don't s--- where you live(or work) These "affairs"reflect badly on the reputation of the school,your fellow employees,etc.

4.You can become involved legally.There are laws regarding statutory rape in most countries.

5.What is "acceptable" in one culture is not "acceptable" in another culture....so it is best to just LEAVE YOUR STUDENTS ALONE.

6.I know someone is going to post and tell me some fairytale romance of some student who was swept off her feet by a noble teacher.And then they were married and lived happily ever after.Sure,fairytale romances are great....and they do happen.But they are definitely the exception...and when a guy posts, making comments like"a fine p---- of Polish a--"...I do not think he is interested in a longterm relationship or the feelings and future of the other person involved.

7.ADVICE:BE PROFESSIONAL,LEAVE YOUR STUDENTS ALONE! TAKE YOUR LIBIDOS OUTSIDE THE CLASSROOM! Sad Sad
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avahanian



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: To date or not to date? that is the question... Reply with quote

leeroy wrote:
Ouch!

I am apparently a sick, sexual predator! Smile

My point, though, was not "ha ha I'm shagging a student!", it was to illustrate that due to the massive diversity teacher-student relationships that exist in the world, "Don't Date Students" seems a little over-simplistic. Maybe, "Be Very Careful Dating Students" would be a better one, although plenty on this board seem to disagree.

Hopefully I've deflected some of the hate away from myself now! Happy Valentines Day Smile

Leeroy.


What an interesting thread indeed!

And certainly an issue that some teachers can relate to. As this discussion is definitely polarised (on one side you have leeroy and on the other side you have bnix), I believe it is always helpful to "step out" of the situation and look at it as an outsider.

Leeroy is not a sexual predator by any means, he is a teacher, like many people reading these message boards, and if you had read his posts more carefully you would have realised that he is being completely honest with himself (whether or not you agree with his views). He had courage to bring up such a delicate issue....at the very least, we should respect his opinions even if we don't agree with them.

Similarly, bnix is not some sort of pious, strict, and rigid absolutist. He is a good professor with years of experience speaking about an ethical issue that concerns many teachers.

The question is, are we to behave as moral absolutists (it is ALWAYS wrong to date a student and should NEVER happen) or as moral relativists (It's OK to date students if they come to you) ?

The answer, I believe, is somewhere in between. Whilst I think that a teacher should try, as much as possible, to refrain from having relations with a student.....there's that damned thing called chemistry (no, not the subject you learn about in school).

Of course, that's no excuse to run rampant and shag everything in sight. It merely means that no one is perfect, and in some cases you find someone with whom you have an immediate attraction/connection, which is also SINCERE (don't tell me you've never felt this before?)

I believe a teacher should make every attempt to wait until the student is no longer a student (ie the student changes classes). This is not difficult to do in private academies as students change classes all the time.

But in some cases, you feel a certain connection with that person....if it's something sincere, then I see nothing wrong with seeing what could happen.

I hope you understand the distinction.....I am not saying it is acceptable to have relations with many of your students. But that sometimes, if it's a sincere feeling two people share, then they can both be mature about it and keep it outside of the classroom and school and see how things could develop.

How about turning 45 and thinking to yourself, "well what if I had done something about her.....I didn't, and I let her walk away!"

which one is worse? Jeopardising your "professionalism" or playing it safe and losing an opportunity with someone really special? That is the question.....

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that teachers should date every student that shows an interest.....what I am saying is that in the rare instance that there is something sincere, why not let it develop?

Remember, we only regret the things we don't do ! And, there are consequences for our bad actions....we should think things over before doing them !

best wishes

Arin
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arin wrote: "I am not saying it is acceptable to have relations with many of your students. But that sometimes, if it's a sincere feeling two people share, then they can both be mature about it and keep it outside of the classroom and school and see how things could develop. "

If he/she is your student, then it is NOT outside the classroom.

Arin also wrote: "My point is that there are situations such as mine where no professionalism is being compromised by having a relationship outside the class."

Would you please explain how being unable to control your carnal feelings over that "fine piece of a*** from Poland" doesn't compromise professionalism? Lusting is one thing. Acting on it is another, especially when you've just become a hypocrite with your co-worker over the issue. Please, how is this NOT unprofessional?

Arin also wrote: "I suspect though that most of the other contributors here are more experienced and qualified than I. Perhaps if I had a DELTA, MA and 10 years experience (and a job & salary appropiate to this) then I would feel the need to start behaving a little more "professionally"."

It doesn't take a master's degree, years of experience, or a large salary to behave professionally. Grow up.
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Deborah



Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a woman, I must say I find the comment about Polish women 100% disgusting. Is this really how male teachers look at a class?! Maybe the poster has forgotten that his female counterparts also take part in this forum. I, too, appreciate his ability to write fairly clearly - but the initial impression is very negative.

Simply, I would like to suggest that in many/most cases, why wouldn't it be cleaner and more professional to wait until the student is no longer YOUR student before beginning to date? If you're actually attracted to someone, what's the great hardship in waiting three months, or even six if that's what it takes? I suppose if you were at the beginning of a school year and were going to be in the situation for most of the year, it could be an issue, but in many instances this isn't the case.

My personal belief is that a need for instant gratification (in relative terms) does not indicate a mature professional in most cases.
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nina



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Bosnia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:58 am    Post subject: What a topic!!!!!!!!!!! Reply with quote

Dear ladies and gents,

I cannot speak directly about relationship teacher - student, because I am not right person for it, but still I can speak as human being.

Well, allow me to say some words about this topic.

Mr. Leeroy, due to the code of conduct, your activities are wrong and I do not agree with you. Why, me as student is not fair to date with my teacher just because I can have connections during exams. See, I had one excellent male teacher, my God each girl was looking at him like he was a mystical code for us, and that is why all of us have been attending his classes. Imagine, young girls like Spirs sung Not girl, not yet a woman. So our hormons were circulating like hell, but still in my country it is forbidden to have intercourse with teacher (i do not say that we did not have and not havingit) legally it is, ohh breaching the code of conduct.
Mr. Leeroy is for a sure the one who cross the line just for a inch.
Question is do we wish sometimes to break the rules, just because rules were made to be broken. OK, now I can say that we cannot control our hearts, emotions. What is that? Since ancient time we have love songs, Romeo and Juliet, heartbreakers, etc. All this is acctually expression of strong, very strong emotions, which we cannot control, that is why great writers called this stage with one single name LOVE. Maybe, all of you know the story about the priest Valentain from Italy, who was executed because he was marrying soldiers and their darlings.
Or I can mention that there was a famous person, VIP, who broke the rule because of woman. Anyway, he did it because he wanted and she wanted as well. He was on the gossip line of all world, so what happened Nothing.
I cannot say that Leeroy is doing wrong thing but as well I cannot justify it. Only person who could suffer the consequences is him none else and maybe girl.
I can only say that woman is guilty if woman is not dancing in front of man, of course he will not react. Now you can imagine what is the story, I blame girl not teacher, specially handsome one. I am woman and I know that as all of you know it.
If he is in relation with her probably he wants to be with her. We do not have right to say anything.
I know all of you are looking this small story from a point of professionalisam, like what will happen if all teachers are doing the same. I can give you answer it will be like all students will have a bit strange education. So what, young kids, now know more than we knew when we were young, pretty and good looking.
So, Mr. Leeroy I do not agree or disagree with you, do whatever you want to do but remember one thing, the secrets are more sweeter when you are hiding them. But OK this is our little public secret. Take care, and try to avoid to get small human attachments till you are not ready for it.

Enjoy your time and have a fun.

But for others, relax, I have been drinking with my teachers too, OK remark there were no intercourses, but I can tell you they were not so kind with us during the classes, even I had problems with one teacher. I am just trying to say private life is private life, job is job. That is only good thing and believe me I had the best teachers.

Even now I would like to go to school just because of them, just to listen their lectures and way of lecturing. I am talking about school not after the school time.

I do respect all of you, maybe there are teachers like my teachers, great, funny and at the same time strict, but still do not judge Mr. Leeroy, he is not guilty because he is a man and plus energetic, if he will suffer let him suffer. With or without your advices he will do it. Trust me that is in our blood to do against all people and regulations specially if are against certain person.

Till next contact stay well, have good time, lots of love and happiness.

Nina
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