Job Discussion Forums

[caissa]

Hello everyone...

Since I've been reading quite a bit from the forums since I took my TEFL certification course in Vancouver in May, I decided to introduce myslef and ask a question.

I'm a dual national (Canadian and American) and in my middle 50s. Three years ago I married a Russian woman from Kursk who raised two sons by herself and has been living in Poltava, Ukraine for many years. I quit a long term job and am living on a modest pension from an early retirement scheme and have been bouncing back and forth between Vancouver and Ukraine ever since.

I've always had an interest in Russian dating back to the chess playing in my youth and a long time interest in Russian history and literature as well. I finally decided to give living in the Ukraine a real shot. Last year I spent four months here and found it quite difficult. It is very culturally isolating to not be able to speak the native language and not know anyone who speaks English. I know this is just a medium size city in Ukraine (about 300,000), but it really does surprise me how rare it is to hear my language here -- like never!

This year I decided to really take the plunge and enroll in one of the "preparatory language programs" offered at many universities in eastern Europe. Apparently these programs are everywhere. You study one of the country's native languages for almost a year and then you proceed, if you wish, to the university proper for undergraduate studies taught in that language.

In this case, the school is in Poltava and came highly recommended by a few students who'd taken the course. They were from Cameroon. And it's very reasonably priced, too. I could afford to take it and live on my pension in Ukraine. I was really looking forward to going back to school in Russian training for five days a week and at least 5 hours a day for months. I would finally be able to get around better, speak to people a bit and not be mistaken for a dumb foreigner and/or rich American. And then later, when looking for work in Russia and CIS countries, I felt it would be something that would really enrich my future experiences there. Really allow me to be a legitimate resident and not some glorified working tourist. Also, at my age and with no teaching experience, I can use any edge I can get. That is, if I could even get a job teaching at my age.

So everything looked great. I started going through the paperwork with transcripts and passport photos and so forth. Was quoted the fees and on the day when I expected everything to be just about be completed, I was informed that I was too old to be admitted. I couldn't believe it. I'd never heard of a university anywhere practicing age discrimination. The universities in Alberta don't even charge fees for seniors attending there. "Lifelong learning" was a policy which I thought was fairly well entrenched. I was stunned that day.

The next day I woke up thinking, "I'm not going to take this crap without a fight." I got a translator and insisted on a meeting with whoever made this decision. The admissions guy, who seemed very sympathetic to me, put together a meeting with the guy who apparently thought up this age policy in the last six months. Well, first they stalled me for three hours hoping I'd just go away.

Finally, we had a meeting. And I couldn't believe all the bs I had to rebutt one item at a time. It was unreal. The guy tried to quote something to me about US regulations. But that didn't work when he found out I also have a Canadian passport. Then he wanted to know about my visa for living in the country. I told him that I could easily get a long term visa here. Then he said that I could not study unless I specifically had a student visa; and that was Ukrainian law. I had to chuckle for a second while looking at him before turning back to the translator and saying, "What is this, the tail wagging the dog? I have to presume that once I am admitted to this course of study that I will qualify for a student visa, no?" It was on and on with crap like that.

I'd even inquired already about the class size. It is very small. So it's not like I was displacing a more "deserving" candidate. His response to that was that I might be considered if the class was "of insufficient size." Unreal. I said that my wife was a primary caregiver for her granddaughter. I am trying to make a life here. I was trying to be a good resident and learn the language. I have the funds. I am not displacing anyone. What is the problem? And then more BS from him. Finally he was shaking my hand and literally pushing me from his office while saying that he would be consulting with someone in Kiev about my situation. And then through the translator I asked whether I could count on his recommending my acceptance into the program (Ok, I'm persistent, but it was all such crap that I just wanted to pin the guy down. Or at least least force him to lie or embarrass himself. He just didn't care).

I said that as far as I could ascertain, it was nothing but age discrimination and that I would be pursuing this further. I would find out if there was such a policy in writing and whether it was part of any acceptable Ukrainian academic standard.

I've subsequently made inquiries about who his superiors are and will be talking to embassy officials in Kiev this coming Monday. I am going to suggest that a "friendly" call from the embassy might be of some help. The veiled threats about standards are pretty hollow I know. I don't speak the language in this country; how in the hell am I going to shake some trees like I would in my own country!?

Anyway, one stupid bureacrat can not only ruin your whole day but one's plans, too. Since I had been led to believe that the school would not be a problem, I hadn't been looking for work. And there's no work in this town. The Mormon missionaries already have their scam going here: Free English Lessons! They give a couple of lessons and then try to convert after that. No, I'd decided that it would be very difficult to stay in Poltava if I was neither working nor learning. Kind of a slow slide into the oblivion of alienation.

I want you guys to understand that I've taken great care here not to go on a rant! But I felt the need to vent a little with some of my own kind. If anyone has any suggestions at this late stage on how I might exert additional pressure on the school, I'd welcome it. And has anyone ever heard of this kind of ageism at the post secondary level?

Thanks for listening. --jon

[rusmeister]

That's hard.
My two cents - if they really don't want you in, there is no way you'd be doing yourself a favor by standing on your rights. Sometimes they want bribes or higher fees (which comes down to the same thing) but if they don't want you or your money (which sounds kind of wierd to me) there's probably not a lot you can do.

I would look for a different program teaching Russian or Ukrainian. There have to be plenty, quality and price would vary, of course, but if (for Russian at least) if they were using some mainline textbook by Russky Yazyk publishers and teachers with some years of experience teaching foreigners on their shoulders you ought to do OK without all of the heartache.

Sorry can't be of more help.

Having said all that, let's see if a Ukrainian specialist wants to add anything.

[caissa]

Rusmeister...

Thanks for your thoughts. I am investigating alternative universities with Russian preparatory language programs. I'm really not interested in learning Ukrainian. It's nothing personal against Ukrainian culture. I'm interested in tramping around eastern Europe and CIS countries where the imperial (second) language was Russian. So obviously Russian is the language that will be more useful to me. Yeah, I thought of the bribe thing, but in a meeting with different parties and a translator I really didn't know if it was a socially acceptable or appropriate forum for it! Thanks again for your comments, and I'll let you know how it all works out. --jon

[Larry Paradine]

Jon, I can't answer the questions you asked but I can offer an observation on your expressed doubt about being able to get a job at your age. Mid fifties? You're still a youth, I'm in my early 60s. TEFL qualified? I'm not (well, I had a sort of TEFL cert issued by a Spanish school while Franco was still alive but, even if I could find it, I doubt it would be recognised as meeting modern standards). Nevertheless, I get teaching jobs, you should have considerably less difficulty.

I've never been to Poltava and don't speak Ukrainian, but I live in Russia and speak chronically bad Russian, which my monoglottal Russian wife usually understands and other Russians understand about 50% of the time, so I feel qualified to offer you a piece of advice about your language difficulties: put yourself in a position (outside of any English teaching activities) where you have no opportunity of speaking English. I assume from your post that your wife speaks English, perhaps even fluently; ask her to forget her English completely for a few days and only speak in her mother tongue. It'll be very difficult for both of you, but I'm sure that, before a week is out, you'll have picked up more Russian, albeit ungrammatical and idiosyncratic, than you'd learn in a month of intensive study at a university.

There's one more thing which may be much more difficult: you have to shake off your North American/West European liberal conviction that all "isms" (racism, ageism, etc) are the hallmark of semiliterate, inarticulate social neanderthals. Even highly educated Russians have no compunction about calling a spade a bloody shovel. Today's Комсомольская Правда contains an article by an intelligent jounalist about an intelligent footballer named Alexander Makarov unblushingly entitled "Хочешь жить как белый человек, работай как негр" (your wife can translate that for you) and the local (Samara) sits vac. columns are replete with ads for secretaries specifying not only gender and age group but required physical appearance as well. Ageism is something that you and I and everyone over 30 has to live with, the only difference being that it's overt in Russia (and, presumably, in Ukraine) and covert in societies that have enforceable equal opportunities laws.

Best of luck! Всего хорошего! Larry.

[ccrider]

I have to second what LP said about the isms in pre or post soviet society. They have absolutely no problem with official discrimination. A point about college/university life in Ukraine: I taught English at a university for two years there. After a certain age you are expected to be at a higher level of studying. Freshmen are 17/18 and so on. Specialist/Masters degree seekers are supposed to be in their mid 20's. There is really no limit for Ph.d seekers. I knew a few Ph.d seekers who didn't actually attend classes, but went to seminars and worked on research. All older students at a lower level of studying will attend night school or some kind of correspondence. I think that this is basically meant to keep the age levels together during regular classes. The regular classes meet in the same group of 10 to 12 during all of their classes until they graduate. You could check into a technical university. They usually have a lot more foreign students than national universities and have official Russian as a second language classes. You may get hit by age discrimination again depending on the age of the students attending.

A look on the internet will show that their are many private schools that teach Russian to foreigners. Many English schools will have Russian classes. There are many out of work English teachers that would love to be a tutor. Even though they were trained in English, they could just as easily teach an English speaker Russian. This is the most expensive option, but tutoring prices are very inexpensive in Ukraine. Outside of classes, I would look into self study courses. There are several that are very good that have many lessons and cds.

What you really don't want to do in the FSU is "shake the tree a little".
If you start making a rukus about something, then you will be labled as a troublemaker. People will stop talking to you because the officials told them to and they fear for their job. Depending on what officials the school officials know, your troubles could go well beyond the university. I'm sure your wife would be the best advice giver on this.

[Digger81]

As others have said there are many private language acadamies throughout Ukraine that specialise in giving Russian lessons to foreigners. I myself done an intensive course for 3 months in Odessa and picked up a lot of the language quite fast. It may be a blessing in disguise because many universities tend to teach their students in a more methodical grammar based manner. I would suggest what you need most is ability to speak enough to be understood, which these lessons concentrate more on, you can also teach yourself. Afterall as long as you can read cyrillic then you can buy yourself a dictionary and begin learning new words on your own.
The benefit of having no other english speakers in Poltava is that you will get plenty of practice which in itself will help you to remember newly learnt words. I had a ukrainian girlfriend who spoke no english at all and just talking with her everyday gave me a lot of rapid improvement, so any new friends you do meet will also be beneficial to your improvement. Good luck with your studies.

[jaykitt]

hi, what hapening to you common i n ukraine and basically they can do what they want but small bribe might work. i hae had same idea as you. my wife ukraiian,currrently i own real estate in odessa but odessa getting to be too expensive and i consideed poltava, bee nthere once 5 yrs ago.nice town. yuo do realize schools in ukraine pay pitiful. cost of larer cities doesnt fall in line with salaries.but if yo hav pension good idea.
do you mind privately discussing your ideas with me. i would like to know real estate situation [email protected]

[caissa]

Guys, sorry this has taken me so long to respond. After various contortions I managed to get enrolled in the Technical University and their Russian preparatory program in Poltava. The cost is about $1,100 for roughly a nine and a half month program. The program is heavily grammar and reading and writing focused. That part doesn't interest me that much because I'm not continuing into the regular undergrad program where all this reading and writing in Russian would be critical. The program is very thorough.

Larry, I noticed after reading your letter again (after a couple of months of this course) that I was able to easily translate the title of that guy's article quite easily!! I hear ya. Message received. And I'm actually beginning to speak this damn language, too! And
Thanks for the support and comments, guys. Have no idea where I'll end up next year. Larry, maybe it WILL be in Russia. You should let me know where in the country you're plying your trade. Maybe we'll have a drink sometime in the future. Until then... --jon

[IvanGrozny]

I don't think we're in Kansas anymore Toto!
Welcome to Eastern Europe. Yeah the bs is think there but hey it's their home and their bs. It aint America/Canada. And yes they absolutely practice all kinds of discrimination in hiring, and make no attempt to hide it. Righteous indignation wont get you very far. The bueocracy is miles deep. The weird thing is that after I am away from it a while I start to miss it. I start to miss being told that my papers aren't in order/missed a deadline..........., but wait for a small "fine" everything can be made right again. It's a ludicrus charade, but it's their charade so I play. It's Russia/Ukraine after all. And it does come in handy when you really have done something wrong and just as expediently can solve the problem by paying a "fine". There is a joke in Russia. Man is flagged over by the militsia who says he must pay a fine. "But what did I do", asks the man. "What!!!!! My children should wait to eat until you do something wrong", retorts the policeman.

Welcome to Russia/Ukraine!