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Legge Biaggi

 
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SueH



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:49 pm    Post subject: Legge Biaggi Reply with quote

Anybody have any insight into how the legge Biaggi might affect contractual arrangements for EFL teachers in Italy?

Can I just preempt anybody who wants to say that it'll probably increase the amount of 'nero' around.. that's taken as read Wink
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Frater



Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welll, the 'co.co.co' will be replaced by a 'consulenza a progetto'.
Same meat, different gravy, cheque's in the post.
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SueH



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply. I take it you don't think they'll bother to regulate the definition of progetto which from my limited understanding (here in the UK) seems the crux of the matter.

A supplementary question may be - do you see your private tuition work being affected by the 'lavoro accessorio' provisions. I'd guess that it just adds another dimension to the black economy game.
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1211

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was under the impression that a "progetto" could last anything from a couple of weeks and up.

I wonder what would happen if you had a "progetto" contract that lasted for six months to a year, and then you wanted to continue working for the company. Would they be able to renew the "progetto", or would they have to offer something more permanent? The old "occasionale" contract has been pegged at 150 hours a year, but I'm not sure if "occasionale" contracts will also be phased out.
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Frater



Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, as far as I understand they can take you on full-time after a 'progetto' but they don't have to. Pretty revolutionary, eh?

I think the sluggishness of this Italy forum is a kind of fatalism - especially where topics such as the Legge Biagi are concerned. Everybody knows that nothing as abstract as a mere law will make any kind of difference to anything out here.

And I don't really care what kind of contract I work on - I care about being given a contract at all, being paid the agreed amount on time, working in a professional atmosphere, being treated with respect, not working for crooks.
Who's going to legislate for all that? And where it's already been legislated for, who's going to make anyone respect the fact, especially down South?

I'm leaving - perhaps at the end of January when there's a break in my courses, perhaps at the end of the year in June.

'Frater'
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1211

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater - I sympathise! The only laws that seem to be respected are those which would affect an Italian's right to drive his or her car... (Funny how the threat of getting points on your licence made everyone use a seatbelt.)

But it's not only ELT teachers getting shafted. I know plenty of Italians who are at the receiving end of labour laws. Sometimes it seems that the only people doing well are those with contacts.

As a matter of interest, where are you heading to next?
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Frater



Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As a matter of interest, where are you heading to next?


Some honest country, I expect, where I can use all the shabby tricks I've learnt in Italy to repair my shattered fortunes.
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1211

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Some honest country, I expect, where I can use all the shabby tricks I've learnt in Italy to repair my shattered fortunes.


From reading posts about other countries, it seems that "honest countries" are few and far between. Given the chance, I suspect that a lot of employers either can't or won't play fair with teachers. Or they want the professional committment, flexibility and hard work, but are unwilling to see employees as anything else but "disposable labour".

On the other hand - and I'm in no way suggesting you are responsible for your situation - but at the risk of inviting flame, I also have to say that some of teachers I come across aren't in any way "professional". There seem to be quite a lot of people who assume that "anyone can teach" or who waltz out of their agreements with schools without considering the effect it has. Unfortunately I think that schools have learnt to mistrust ELT teachers.

In the case of Italy, do you think there is any difference between the situation for teachers and the situation for other jobs? Perhaps teachers should get themselves organised and get affiliated to unions with "muscle" - if such a thing exists.
[/quote]
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Frater



Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, but no ... that's not the way to look at things - 'the small minority who spoil it for the rest of us' and all that.

Do good people in ANY other job accept that kind of reasoning, or is it just an idiosyncrasy of TEFL teachers???

I've never heard, for example, 'If only some of my fellow barmen were a bit more honest, the landlord might pay give me another fifty pence an hour and treat me better. But he says he's been let down in the past, poor chap, so we have to understand.'

'Backpackers' (and the bizarre intermediate life-forms we encounter along the scale that leads down from the divine beauty of the CELTA qualified teacher to the freakish loathesomeness of the Backpacker) don't force wages down by their unprofessional behaviour, but by their ready AVAILABILITY in some places. C'est tout.

The Trade Union of TEFL Teachers is also a tired old fantasy, if there could usefully be such a thing, it would have come into existence by now. In a school with a VERY low turnover of staff, you might get a staff representative who could do the work of improving pay and conditions for teachers at that school over a period of YEARS.

In any case, I'm well-paid (when I finally get paid) and I don't work in the private sector, so my concerns may be slightly different from those of many others in this forum.
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Frater



Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right about one thing, though, Teacher in Rome - I don't imagine it's much better for many Italians ...
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1211

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm having problems with the "quote button" - see below!

Last edited by Teacher in Rome on Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1211

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't work in the private sector, so my concerns may be slightly different from those of many others in this forum.


I know that getting paid late sometimes happens in the private sector (but I know of plenty of places where this doesn't happen), but I'm surprised that you get paid late in the non-private sector. I'm curious - do you work in a university? I thought that things were much better for uni staff
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SueH



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:29 pm    Post subject: Keep It Up Reply with quote

I'm glad that at least I stimulated a bit of reaction from you two, but otherwise, as you say, fatalism reigns.

It's a shame that the same sad employment story keeps on repeating itself. I still want to go to Italy either this year or next since as a career changer and an inexperienced teacher getting continuous EFL work in the UK is a real grind. At the moment all I have is teaching beginner's Italian (!) at evening class. Since I left Italy in 1966 when I was very young my grammar and vocab are somewhat limited. Working in Italy would fulfil my objectives rather nicely.

Whilst I am easy going I come from a fairly professional big company background, and I am also old enough and ugly enough not to want to put up with too much m***a. Any advice would be welcome, particularly your opinions on the possibility of developing a network of private clients.

PS Teacher in Rome – you should have been there in the 60’s – which I was unfortunately too young to really appreciate. Whereabouts are you? I lived in l’EUR and went to St. Georges. I am inordinately proud of my late Dad for having 7 years in Rome without a car accident, which I’m sure wouldn’t happen these days!
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1211

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sue

Getting continuous work isn't easy, as the whole of August and at least the first week of September is a write-off. There's also the Christmas break (almost three weeks this year) and Easter to factor in.

The school I work for tries not to give out m***a, but we're at the mercy of clients - and budgets. So it's short-term contracts for courses, which could last anything from 3 - 6 months and nothing when there's no work. No sick pay, no holiday pay, no buoni pasti, but minimum legal contributions to INPS. As we can only give contracts for the courses we have (which might mean that we aren't offering 20 hours a week), most of our teachers work for other schools too, as well as developing their network of private students.

I've heard of hourly rates ranging from about 10euro per hour (net) to 20+. Of course, what you declare as taxable income is up to you, but if you're thinking of settling here and buying a house, the more income you declare, the better.

If you're thinking of developing a network of private students, you might also want to consider getting a "partita iva" (vat no), which will mean you can deduct from gross earnings and so reduce your tax bill. The downside of this is having to pay an accountant to sort it out, but it could work to your advantage.

There seems to be a little less company work these days - perhaps because of training budgets being cut. If you have qualifications and experience, though, you are in a good position to get reasonably paid work.

Anyway, to answer your other question, I live near the Vat and work in the outskirts of Rome. I'm glad I don't have a car, but the metro is rough - smelly and crowded. At least it doesn't cost you a couple of quid for the discomfort, though!

You could also try Milan, where teachers earn a lot more than in Rome, or so I've heard. Of course, if you've lived in Rome before, you are seriously unlikely to want to go to Milan!! Exclamation (No offense to any Milanesi...)
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