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Bamby
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 40
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 Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Stephen,
I may not understand your question correctly, but it seems to me that in "oral English" (i.e. dialogue), all of us often speak in phrases and dependent clauses, especially in response to questions:
"Where's the teacher?"
"In the classroom."
or
"Why did you do that?"
"Because I wanted to."
I think a problem can sometimes arise when students read dialogue, see phrases and dependent clauses being treated as sentences (i.e. beginning with capital letters and having end marks) and can get confused as to what constitutes a sentence in written English (first letter capital, subject, verb, complete thought, end mark.)
In fact, Bamby's confusion may be an illustration of this very problem.
Regards,
John |
Nope. All the above examples you gave are complete sentences or statements except "Because I wanted to" and "In the classroom". It has nothing to do with 'first capital letter'. Phrases and dependent clauses are incomplete sentences. Phrases and dependent clauses are never, ever complete. It is always missing something that prevents it from being complete. Whether it needs extra words or even punctuations. Maybe your confusion is that you think sentences are always complete. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'm beginning to lose my patient. It seems that this topic drift into teaching "phrase". I don't need NO one teaching me about simple phrases.
Are you sure you're from the U.S.?
Again, not a personal attack at all, but Johnslat is really very patient and usually quite accurate in what he's posting. The above would seem to indicate pretty clearly that you might want to at least listen to the input of others in the field ... assuming that you're a professional in ELT. |
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Bamby
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
I'm beginning to lose my patient. It seems that this topic drift into teaching "phrase". I don't need NO one teaching me about simple phrases.
Are you sure you're from the U.S.?
Again, not a personal attack at all, but Johnslat is really very patient and usually quite accurate in what he's posting. The above would seem to indicate pretty clearly that you might want to at least listen to the input of others in the field ... assuming that you're a professional in ELT. |
Quite accurate in what? Sentence A and B need commas. Don't try to switch the topic. I don't care about Johnslat patience, no offense. I did not argue his simple phrases he laid out. Since he is so damn smart, he need to rewrite Sentence A and B or add the comma/commas where they belong. End of conversation. |
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Bamby
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
I'm beginning to lose my patient. It seems that this topic drift into teaching "phrase". I don't need NO one teaching me about simple phrases.
Are you sure you're from the U.S.?
Again, not a personal attack at all, but Johnslat is really very patient and usually quite accurate in what he's posting. The above would seem to indicate pretty clearly that you might want to at least listen to the input of others in the field ... assuming that you're a professional in ELT. |
Listen to what input? Others need to listen to me. PUT THE F*CKING COMMA/COMMAS WHERE THEY BELONG OR REWRITE THE SENTENCE! What he wrote is INCORRECT. You can get away with saying "Our lives are together closer and closer", but you damn sure can't write it out that way. It's wrong. |
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Insubordination
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 394
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't want to start a new thread but I noticed something curious when listening to a song in class the other day. The song said, "Am I not pretty enough?"
I suddenly realised that I often say Aren't I? rather than Am I not?. Why is this? Is it usual? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Insubordination (nice user name),
Yup, it's much more usual to say "Aren't I" rather then "Am I not."
Perhaps the scanning of the song required three beats instead of two.
"Am I not" is more "dramatic" and formal.
Regards,
John |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| assuming that you're a professional in ELT. |
According to a post made this June, Bamby's specialty is Medical Terminology and he/shehas not yet taken a TEFL course. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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SJ
| Quote: |
| Arioch I'll get back to you tomorrow. |
Now those are words to strike fear into the heart of any ordinary ESL/TESOL/EFL/TEFL teacher
But I think the thread has reached the lock down point
"
"Aren't" I sounds childish and pouty "Am I Not" sounds more refined. The connotations I feel at least, as a 40 y/o American
A lot depends on the song |
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Llamalicious
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 150
Location: Rumah Makan Sederhana
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Hey, no threadjacking. I want to hear more about F*CKING COMMAS! |
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guty
Joined: 10 Apr 2003
Posts: 365
Location: on holiday
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Am I not
is more usual in the north of England
aren't I
would be more usual in the south
How are they used in US or Oz?
I guess they are both equally correct gramatically, whether they sound more pouty or refined is, I believe, in the ear of the beholder. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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For tail questions in British English innit's taken over.
I suspect ain't I is still the most usual form for a question, but even in this age of existential doubt first person singular real interrogatives must be fairly rare, no? |
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Bamby
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Insubordination wrote: |
Didn't want to start a new thread but I noticed something curious when listening to a song in class the other day. The song said, "Am I not pretty enough?"
I suddenly realised that I often say Aren't I? rather than Am I not?. Why is this? Is it usual? |
I had to butt in. Aren't I (Are not I) is incorrect. Am I not is correct. It is never 'I are'; it is always 'I am'. To ask a question instead of "I am" you would say Am I... I hope that is not difficult. |
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Bamby
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| MO39 wrote: |
| spiral78 wrote: |
| assuming that you're a professional in ELT. |
According to a post made this June, Bamby's specialty is Medical Terminology and he/shehas not yet taken a TEFL course. |
My specialty is Medical Terminology. I don't have one of those "TEFL" course certificate. However, I am certified to teach english and I volunteer at local colleges and libraries teaching english to immigrants. |
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Bamby
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
For tail questions in British English innit's taken over.
I suspect ain't I is still the most usual form for a question, but even in this age of existential doubt first person singular real interrogatives must be fairly rare, no? |
Ain't is widely spoken in the U.S. It is a dialect but it is use in everyday english. It takes on the negative. Ain't I translate to "Am I not" |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bamby wrote: |
I had to butt in. Aren't I (Are not I) is incorrect. Am I not is correct. It is never 'I are'; it is always 'I am'. To ask a question instead of "I am" you would say Am I... I hope that is not difficult. |
According to my Merriam Webster's dictionary, "aren't I?" is the perfectly correct question form of "I am not". Just one of those little irregularities of everyday spoken English that drive our students (and you, Bamby, apparently) a bit bonkers. |
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