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jana110j
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Posts: 4
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:58 pm Post subject: Thanks for the info |
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| While I am very grateful for the information everyone has given me, it is quite obvious that certain individuals have ruffled a few feathers. I have e-mailed universities my CV and other various international schools and have yet to really hear anything back. Quite discouraging I might say. When I first began my search a recruiter offered me a contract for 53,000 and I said no. Now I am thinking that may have been a bad move. If it was just me coming alone all of this really would not be an issue, but my son will be with me and I have to think what will be best for him as well. Maybe I just need to be a little more patient. The only problem here in the states is that I have to ask my current school for a leave of absence and it is a little scary to think that I do not have anything lined up yet. Am I just out of my mind to want to do this, or do I need to relax and let things fall as they may. Thanks to all who respond. I truely appreciate all the words of wisdom!! |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks for the info |
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| jana110j wrote: |
| While I am very grateful for the information everyone has given me, it is quite obvious that certain individuals have ruffled a few feathers. I have e-mailed universities my CV and other various international schools and have yet to really hear anything back. Quite discouraging I might say. When I first began my search a recruiter offered me a contract for 53,000 and I said no. Now I am thinking that may have been a bad move. If it was just me coming alone all of this really would not be an issue, but my son will be with me and I have to think what will be best for him as well. Maybe I just need to be a little more patient. The only problem here in the states is that I have to ask my current school for a leave of absence and it is a little scary to think that I do not have anything lined up yet. Am I just out of my mind to want to do this, or do I need to relax and let things fall as they may. Thanks to all who respond. I truely appreciate all the words of wisdom!! |
Recruiters are a gold mine for getting current schools who need teachers right now. Take a look at the amount of hits the job advertisements on various sites get, and you'll see why you don't get responses. They get 100s of applications. There really is no better way to find a job in Taiwan. But as usual, people will disagree. |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Thanks for the info |
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Honestly the best advice that I can give you is firstly to ignore anything that Jason Seeburn says. He is almost always wrong in the assertions that he makes, which are all based upon a single nine month experience working for a single school in a small town outside of Taichung. If you were looking to work for a private buxiban in Fengyuan then I would say that Jason would be the one to talk to, but since you aren't I don't see what he has to offer.
| jana110j wrote: |
| I have e-mailed universities my CV and other various international schools and have yet to really hear anything back. Quite discouraging I might say. |
This would be true of pretty much any job search I would think. I think that many companies are notorious for not replying to job applications. Considering the numbers of applications schools get from prospective teachers, I wouldn't be too surprised nor discouraged. Most schools will not employ you until you are here and they have had the chance to meet you face to face. The fact that you are applying from overseas may count against you in this regard. If they have a position available now, then they want someone who is here and can take the job now. If you are looking for something in the future they may not have the foresight to plan this ahead. Also, please bear in mind that almost every school would have had experiences with applicants from overseas who went through the whole process and never showed up to picked up from the airport.
| jana110j wrote: |
| When I first began my search a recruiter offered me a contract for 53,000 and I said no. Now I am thinking that may have been a bad move. |
I don't know the circumstances of the job but I don't think that you should be too disappointed in missing out on that job. It doesn't seem like a very good job to me. I would expect that you would want a job paying at least NTD60,000 a month. Try not to accept any job offering any less than this as you are really selling yourself short. Considering your qualifications and experience you should expect more than this.
| jana110j wrote: |
| Am I just out of my mind to want to do this, or do I need to relax and let things fall as they may. Thanks to all who respond. I truely appreciate all the words of wisdom!! |
I don't have children and I have to try to bear the fact that you do in mind when I give advice. I think that you need to make a commitment. If you are comitted to coming to Taiwan, and have the financial resources to live without work for a week or two then the best thing you can do is to just arrive here. You have a very good chance of finding a job in Taipei soon after your arrival (assuming that you are open to all offers - be that buxiban work). Everything else will fall into place once you have found a job. If you try to find a job from overseas or come through a recruiter, you may continue to be disappointed. My advice again is to line up some interviews for the first few days after you arrive and keep the agents info as your backup. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Thanks for the info |
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| jana110j wrote: |
| I have e-mailed universities my CV and other various international schools and have yet to really hear anything back. Quite discouraging I might say. |
| Quote: |
| This would be true of pretty much any job search I would think. I think that many companies are notorious for not replying to job applications. Considering the numbers of applications schools get from prospective teachers, I wouldn't be too surprised nor discouraged. Most schools will not employ you until you are here and they have had the chance to meet you face to face. |
Wrong. There are tons of schools in Taiwan that will hire you from abroad. This is completely untrue, Brian. I know of around 6 agents off the top of my head that could get her a job tomorrow, starting next week, for 60,000NT with free housing and airport pick up. Why do you say these things that aren't true?
| Quote: |
| The fact that you are applying from overseas may count against you in this regard. If they have a position available now, then they want someone who is here and can take the job now. |
Wrong. This is true of Japan, not of Taiwan. With Taiwan and Korea it is easy to get a job from overseas. With Japan it is a bit harder and most of the time you either get a job with a big chain school or you go over and get a job when you get there.
| Quote: |
| If you are looking for something in the future they may not have the foresight to plan this ahead. Also, please bear in mind that almost every school would have had experiences with applicants from overseas who went through the whole process and never showed up to picked up from the airport. |
I wouldn't listen to him. I can supply you with lists of people to contact who will get you a job the day you talk to them. It is ridiculously easy. The people from the school will then come to the airport, with a big sign with your name on it, pick you up, and drive you to the school.
| jana110j wrote: |
| When I first began my search a recruiter offered me a contract for 53,000 and I said no. Now I am thinking that may have been a bad move. |
| Quote: |
| I don't know the circumstances of the job but I don't think that you should be too disappointed in missing out on that job. It doesn't seem like a very good job to me. I would expect that you would want a job paying at least NTD60,000 a month. Try not to accept any job offering any less than this as you are really selling yourself short. Considering your qualifications and experience you should expect more than this. |
Not necessarily. There may have been benefits. A lot of the time the school will offer a salarly like that, but then offer a perfect attendance bonus, a housing bonus, and an end of contract bonus, and sometimes an airfare refund. You need to add it all up to get the gross salary. 53,000 is on the low side, but I wouldn't expect more than 60,000 for your first year, unless you are really lucky.
| jana110j wrote: |
| Am I just out of my mind to want to do this, or do I need to relax and let things fall as they may. Thanks to all who respond. I truely appreciate all the words of wisdom!! |
| Quote: |
| I don't have children and I have to try to bear the fact that you do in mind when I give advice. I think that you need to make a commitment. If you are comitted to coming to Taiwan, and have the financial resources to live without work for a week or two then the best thing you can do is to just arrive here. |
I really don't know about this advice Brian. Wouldn't it be better just to take an offer from an agent, get picked up at the airport, and have a place to go to as soon as you get there? Especially if you are coming with a 7 year old child? |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Thanks for the info |
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[quote="jason_seeburn"]
| jana110j wrote: |
| I have e-mailed universities my CV and other various international schools and have yet to really hear anything back. Quite discouraging I might say. |
| Quote: |
| This would be true of pretty much any job search I would think. I think that many companies are notorious for not replying to job applications. Considering the numbers of applications schools get from prospective teachers, I wouldn't be too surprised nor discouraged. Most schools will not employ you until you are here and they have had the chance to meet you face to face. |
Wrong. There are tons of schools in Taiwan that will hire you from abroad. This is completely untrue, Brian. I know of around 6 agents off the top of my head that could get her a job tomorrow, starting next week, for 60,000NT with free housing and airport pick up. Why do you say these things that aren't true? They'll more than likely expect you to do a quick demo when you get there, but you're hired anyway.
| Quote: |
| The fact that you are applying from overseas may count against you in this regard. If they have a position available now, then they want someone who is here and can take the job now. |
Wrong. This is true of Japan, not of Taiwan. With Taiwan and Korea it is easy to get a job from overseas. With Japan it is a bit harder and most of the time you either get a job with a big chain school or you go over and get a job when you get there.
| Quote: |
| If you are looking for something in the future they may not have the foresight to plan this ahead. Also, please bear in mind that almost every school would have had experiences with applicants from overseas who went through the whole process and never showed up to picked up from the airport. |
I wouldn't listen to him. I can supply you with lists of people to contact who will get you a job the day you talk to them. It is ridiculously easy. The people from the school will then come to the airport, with a big sign with your name on it, pick you up, and drive you to the school.
| jana110j wrote: |
| When I first began my search a recruiter offered me a contract for 53,000 and I said no. Now I am thinking that may have been a bad move. |
| Quote: |
| I don't know the circumstances of the job but I don't think that you should be too disappointed in missing out on that job. It doesn't seem like a very good job to me. I would expect that you would want a job paying at least NTD60,000 a month. Try not to accept any job offering any less than this as you are really selling yourself short. Considering your qualifications and experience you should expect more than this. |
Not necessarily. There may have been benefits. A lot of the time the school will offer a salarly like that, but then offer a perfect attendance bonus, a housing bonus, and an end of contract bonus, and sometimes an airfare refund. You need to add it all up to get the gross salary. 53,000 is on the low side, but I wouldn't expect more than 60,000 for your first year, unless you are really lucky.
| jana110j wrote: |
| Am I just out of my mind to want to do this, or do I need to relax and let things fall as they may. Thanks to all who respond. I truely appreciate all the words of wisdom!! |
| Quote: |
| I don't have children and I have to try to bear the fact that you do in mind when I give advice. I think that you need to make a commitment. If you are comitted to coming to Taiwan, and have the financial resources to live without work for a week or two then the best thing you can do is to just arrive here. |
I really don't know about this advice Brian. Wouldn't it be better just to take an offer from an agent, get picked up at the airport, and have a place to go to as soon as you get there? Especially if you are coming with a 7 year old child?
Oh, and Brian, I don't remember what 7-11 clerks on Taiwan say (because I know you'll bring this up). |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Now Jason.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Hourly is usually part time. Read the job advertisements section on this site and the various other sites that advertise for taiwan jobs. When they say hourly, they almost always mean part time. |
I guess that this all depends upon one�s definition of full or part time. The situation here in Taiwan is quite different from that in many western countries. The fact is that here many foreign teachers are working twenty to forty hour weeks on hourly rates and earning far more than counterparts working forty hour weeks on salary rates. It is my assumption that many choose salary rates because they mistakenly believe that these positions offer more job security or benefits. It is true that some of these jobs will offer some of the benefits that �full time� positions offer, such as paid typhoon days etc. they also require that people work a thirteen month year (there are 52 weeks in a year after all � not 48 ). There are responsibilities inherent in these positions, some of which are quite undesirable to many. In many salary jobs you may be required to clean your own classroom, give out DM�s, do the monkey in the zoo thing. Hourly teachers just show up, get their pay and leave. Both have contracts but we all know how valuable written contracts are here in Taiwan, so neither offer any real job security.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Recruiters are a gold mine for getting current schools who need teachers right now. Take a look at the amount of hits the job advertisements on various sites get, and you'll see why you don't get responses. They get 100s of applications. There really is no better way to find a job in Taiwan. But as usual, people will disagree. |
The better way is to find the jobs yourself and deal directly to avoid misunderstandings. Yes, recruiters have a valuable role and shouldn�t be avoided if you need them, but they should really only be used as a back up. If become reliant upon them you are almost certainly going to come out second best.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| This is not true. I was paid a salary of 63,000NT a month, and was never at my school for more than 6 hours. I usually got there at 2:30 and left at 8:30pm, except on Tuesdays when I got there at 4:00 and left at 8:30. |
Firstly Jason, just because your single experience may have been different that doesn�t mean that what others say isn�t true. This is your whole problem on this board, when you post something as being what you believe based upon your limited experience you claim it to be representative of the situation throughout Taiwan which it clearly isn�t.
As I stated in my post a salary position will require you to be at school ABOUT eight hours a day. From my perspective, sitting around at a school six hours a day isn�t far off eight, considering that if you are working hourly you only need to show up if you�re working, and if you�re working you are earning top dollar for your time. Assuming that what you are telling us about your experience is accurate then I calculate that you were earning less than NTD562.50 per hour. This is based upon NTD63,000 / 112 hours per month = NTD562.50 per hour, but we need to factor in that each month is actually 30 or 31 days and you are only being paid for 28 days � which is the thirteen months a year that I was referring to earlier. On a salary basis you are basically working for one month for free in Taiwan, which is why most Chinese employee get a one month bonus at Chinese New Year. Most foreigners don�t, so watch out for this. On the other hand employees paid an hourly rate get paid for every hour they are at school. Less than NTD562 an hour is reasonable but not very good, particularly for someone who has qualifications and experience. Personally Jason I think that you got duped, but I guess that all is ok if you were happy with the deal you got.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| In Taipei? |
Uh! Yes! That is what I have been talking about all along and this is what she was asking about, so yes, in Taipei.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Yeah, Hess is great. You should read all the positive experiences people have had there. |
Did you work for Hess as well during your nine month stay in Taiwan. If not, then you must be basing your comment solely upon third party information. Well let�s look at that information shall we.
Are there any complaints regarding Hess about failure to secure ARC�s? No.
Are there any complaints about Hess in regards to failure to pay for work undertaken? No.
Are there any complaints about Hess in regards to cancellation of an employees work permit without the employees prior knowledge? No.
The complaints that are made about Hess are almost all the result of personality conflicts and unmet expectations. Considering that Hess largely recruits individuals who are newly graduated and have never lived in Asia before, these types of complaints aren't unexpected. I mean we are often talking about people who are having their first working experience, their first trip overseas and their first time living away from home. Of course there are going to be things that rub them the wrong way here in Taiwan, and it is very easy for them to blame these on their employer. The fact is that these problems are largely due to culture shock. Those that realize this become long termers here and look back on their experience with Hess more realistically. Those that don�t often return home prematurely, with a hatred of Taiwan and a hatred of their employer who just happened to be Hess. Please feel free to point out any legitimate complaints that you have seen against Hess that are more than the above. Quantity of posts doesn�t necessarily equate to quality. Looks like you may have been duped once again.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| This is less true with smaller cities. In Taipei there are always lots of foreigners looking for work so your job can be taken in the time it takes you to get over there. |
Really? I was actually thinking of smaller cities when I wrote this. A small enterprise is more likely going to be unable to wait for a teacher to arrive as they have no one to cover classes. As many of these small independents are in small cities it stands to reason that they are more likely to do this to a teacher than a bigger school or a school in a big city.
Once again Jason you are talking through your�no I won�t say it! |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Wow. An overlap in our posts means that we are online at the same time. Kind of like messenger isn�t it. Well here is an answer to your latest�.info!
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Wrong. There are tons of schools in Taiwan that will hire you from abroad. This is completely untrue, Brian. I know of around 6 agents off the top of my head that could get her a job tomorrow, starting next week, for 60,000NT with free housing and airport pick up. Why do you say these things that aren't true? |
They will recruit you from overseas, but they certainly don�t hire you from overseas. Do the agents or schools obtain a working permit for you so that you can arrive on your Resident Visa? No. Then in my opinion they are giving you a job offer, but there is no guarantee of a job. Just because you may be asked to sign a contract before you arrive doesn�t mean anything. I am not suggesting that it is a widespread practice to sign contracts only to find non-existent jobs, what I am saying is that the concept that signing a contract overseas is a guarantee of a job is nothing more than a furphy.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Wrong. This is true of Japan, not of Taiwan. With Taiwan and Korea it is easy to get a job from overseas. With Japan it is a bit harder and most of the time you either get a job with a big chain school or you go over and get a job when you get there. |
Of course it�s true. If a school wants a teacher ASAP, and they get one application from someone who is overseas, and an equitable one from someone who is already here of course they will take the one who is here. The one who is here is almost guaranteed to show up for work, but the one from overseas is a real indefinite. They may change their mind altogether and not even come to Taiwan, let alone the wait for them to arrive
Once again you are confused. It is easy to find work from overseas and get a job offer, and even in some cases a contract to sign before you arrive, but until you have arrived and been interviewed face to face, you would be naive to think that you have a guaranteed job. Schools will back down on an offer if they don�t consider that you are suitable, and you can do nothing about this, just the same way that they can�t do anything if you change your mind and don�t come to Taiwan even after you have signed a contract with them.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| I wouldn't listen to him. I can supply you with lists of people to contact who will get you a job the day you talk to them. It is ridiculously easy. The people from the school will then come to the airport, with a big sign with your name on it, pick you up, and drive you to the school. |
Job offers, yes. A guaranteed job, no! The only reason that I am pursuing this is that if someone is seeking an absolute guarantee that they have solid employment before arriving in Taiwan, what Jason is suggesting doesn�t constitute this. If the employer were willing to apply for and pay for your work permit before you arrived and even pay for your ticket for to arrive on then that would be enough of a commitment for me. That is what happens with the multi-nationals, but it ain�t going to happen with buxibans. They don�t need to do this to get staff.
The other thing that Jason seems to be overlooking is that were you to arrive with a solid �job offer�, met at the airport and provided with free accommodation only to find out that the job isn�t what you were looking for, well what do you do? It would be considered bad form to run away or return home, but you certainly don�t want to sign up for a year if you are not happy from the get go. Who needs the pressure? You are better to come here on your own steam, retain some freedom of choice of school, and the negotiation power of knowing that you can walk away from a job offer if they are not willing to play ball.
As I have stated before line some interviews up before you arrive, check out the schools and then choose the one that you want to work for, don�t be chosen by the school.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Not necessarily. There may have been benefits. A lot of the time the school will offer a salarly like that, but then offer a perfect attendance bonus, a housing bonus, and an end of contract bonus, and sometimes an airfare refund. You need to add it all up to get the gross salary. 53,000 is on the low side, but I wouldn't expect more than 60,000 for your first year, unless you are really lucky. |
As I stated in my post � I don�t know the circumstances of the job offer�. If it was NTD53,000 for three hours each morning then great. More than likely though it was a standard 30 to 40 hour a week arrangement. As for �bonuses� you would be crazy to factor these into your earnings. There are often so many conditions attached to these bonuses that they may or may not pan put. NEVER factor these in to your earnings. If you get the bonuses as promised then that is great, but ever assume that you will. It is not about dishonesty from the school, it is just about differences in expectation. Most teachers see bonuses as a given, but many schools see it from the opposite way � as a reward. This inconsistency nearly always lead to trouble. Sounds like you have been duped by the �bells and whistles� once again Jason.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| I really don't know about this advice Brian. Wouldn't it be better just to take an offer from an agent, get picked up at the airport, and have a place to go to as soon as you get there? Especially if you are coming with a 7 year old child? |
As I have always said, there are categories of people that could be well serviced by a good agent. People with young children are one of them. We are discussing the option of coming on one�s own steam which doesn�t rule out the agent option. |
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