Job Discussion Forums

[bje]

[hellionzap]

bje, this comes as no surprise to me.
I'm in Oman now and the contrast is utterly startling. Here I am, in not only a Muslim country, but smack in the middle of an Arab culture, the 2 things we, as westerners , are taught to fear and have no understanding of whatsoever......... I came here to escape the poverty of spirit as well as the poverty of pocketbook and I found a society that shows me respect, kindness, consideration, inclusiveness, concern and warmth. None of which I experienced (except from the very few individuals) in my 16 years living in New Zealand culture. It still blows my mind. I love being a useful, appreciated part of this culture and and it so makes me want to give back and contribute to their development and their enjoyment of life. It is my pleasure to give to them as they have demonstrated giving to me. It's simple. This is not the case in NZ.

What we now know to be Omani culture is ancient and, though some would give it a cursory look and say, 'stone age, what can we learn from them?', the people here have had thousands of years surviving (probably by being an inclusive society) in a hostile environment (at times) whereas NZ is what, 150 years old? Babies...and they act like it.
Keitepai appears to be in Istanbul now and I applaud him or her for this choice. Having been there, I know the stark difference between those 2 cultures. Also, as a Kiwi, he or she will be loved and respected.

[norwalkesl]

[hellionzap]

Yup, Hollywood has a lot to answer to. The Hollywood version of the United States as a whole is ridiculous. And people outside the US think it's all real
My children found this out recently when they returned "home" for a 6 week holiday, after having lived their entire lives (since age 2) outside the country of their birth. They had watched every film and tv show as if it contained the story of their forbears, their very own culture. I tried to tell them that Hollywood makes 'stories' and that it only barely represents life of and for Americans. Imagine buying Nightrider or Die Hard or Buffy as reality? They are teenagers, so they know everything and barely heard what I had to say Boy were they shocked at the reality of life and the people in their homeland........One of my sons wrote back to me, "Mum, I'm not cool enough for California'
They are going to go back to the States to make a life for themselves there but they now have a much more realistic vision. They more understand that they will have to study the culture to be able to fit in. They will be going 'home' not as encultured citizens, but in the same way that immigrants go to the US, looking for inclusion in the 'greatest country'. It's our home but we know it's not perfect and there should be a site like "expat exposed" for those who struggle there.

[mmcmorrow]

I haven't found New Zealand culture to be particularly narrow-minded or depressing in my five years here and I don't think that's a general impression among other migrants. I've found the people very welcoming, generally good-humoured and pretty self-deprecating. There's a big dollop of British culture in the mix (Coronation Street is still the top TV programme, for instance), so Brits in particular are unlikely to find any big surprises, I think.Come to think of it, maybe that's why visitors might think it's depressing here in NZ - they really need to spend a few days in Wigan and then I want to hear them say Auckland is depressing - a city where you are never more than a few km from a secluded beach or tree-clad hill with sweeping views across one of its harbours.

Most of the Chinese people I know here (Chinese families recently overtook Brits as the main migrant group) are also pretty satisfied with what they've found. It's a generally peaceful, tolerant country with plenty of green spaces and a good place to bring up a family. That's the main draw for all the migrants I know and, on the whole, it delivers. The main reasons why migrants don't stay is, I think, the relative lack of working / economic opportunities. OK, the theatre / arts / music scene is a bit limited - but after all, the whole population of the country would fit into the back pocket of any major world city. And it's stuck on the far edge of the known world. So we have to thank our lucky stars Lady Gaga has deigned to include us on her world tour. Mostly, it's has-beens and never-really-were's. And, ok, it can be a bit inward-looking - like every overgrown village. But these are simply the flipside of the advantages. Surely, anyone coming to NZ would know that. If they want Manhattan, I can provide them with the map and earplugs. And if they do come to NZ and find it's not quite to their liking, well, no one's holding a gun to their head to stop them leaving... for 16 years!!! Move on - thank God the world is full of differences!

Martin McMorrow, Auckland, NZ
International Students NZ podcast

[hellionzap]

Aren't you the lucky one then. I'd certainly agree that your life in Auckland sounds pleasant enough and had I been able to have such a NZ lifestyle, I might have been a bit happier during those 16 years (!).
Had you ever experienced a life outside the lovely City of Sails you might have found yourself in a grittier, grimmer and less convivial New Zealand (south of the Bombays). I love Auckland myself but where we lived the locals hated Dorklanders. So, you see the zenophobia runs deep in the heartland.
Those long and unhappy 16 years were spent in NZ because I made the unfortunate choice to move to 'this place' with my then NZ husband who, after 5 yrs, left me and our 2 children to fend for ourselves. I spent the next 11 yrs on and off the dole trying to survive and raise my children alone in a very unpleasant situation. My best friends were my expat students. Had I been able to leave at any time during those years, I would have jumped but due to the legal restrictions of taking my children out of the country and the lack of any money not used for our survival I could not leave until my children were of an age and I could find a way out financially. Now we are all long gone and so much happier in a couple of different countries. My life has opened up and I feel as if I am in Heaven. My life was absolutely nothing like your life sounds now in your lovely city. Circumstances aside, rural New Zealanders, even in the hubs, are not particularly open minded and to be honest, I have yet to come across a self-deprecating New Zealander inside NZ.
You lead a very sheltered life. And you are very lucky. I envy you.

[Le Petit Prince]

Ever been to China, mate? I imagine most Chinese would be "happy with their lot" if they were living in Dacca after a lifetime in the Middle Kingdom.
Kiwis are self-deprecating? I have worked with several New Zealanders in the Middle East over the years. I am a graduate of two different Ivy League Universities in the United States, and I can't tell you how many times those people have told me how ignorant and unqualified I was for these silly EFL jobs. I've been in education for years, but I couldn't name any of the "World Class" universities they brag about if you held a gun to my head.
.

[mmcmorrow]

Yes, I have been to China. Thanks for asking. And in response to the previous poster, no I don't think I do live an especially sheltered life. But again, thanks for your interest.


The bigger question here is whether NZ in general is a narrow-minded, depressing culture, as portrayed in a few postings on here. My own experience has been to the contrary. I live in a multicultural and tolerant environment and have friendly neighbours. I participate in a wide range of social and cultural events and enjoy the beauty of nature here which is free and easily accessible. Actually, come to think of it, maybe that is a bit sheltered. But who's complaining?!

That doesn't mean that everyone here has a good lifestyle - and I can't guarantee that migrants won't come across sad embittered people who just want to bring them down. For all I know, there might even be whole swathes of the country populated by such folk. But most migrants settle in Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington, which I am pretty familiar with. I feel confident enough to say that any of those cities could provide the potential for a satisfying and healthy lifestyle and there are enough decent people around to find yourself a comfortable social niche. And if you don't - well, move to another town or suburb and try your luck there.

And by the way, Kiwis strangers to self-deprecating humour? Yeah rite!

[hellionzap]

Wow. Just cause you keep repeating it doesn't make it so.

"For all I know there may be whole swathes of the country populated by such folk." Again, wow, such concern for the actual facts, not to mention an amazing level of human interest, care, let alone empathy. That's New Zealand for you, would-be immigrants. This poster has found the place that suits him or her perfectly:-)

As for the "sad, embittered people" (heaven forbid they should interfere with our enjoyment of the Good Life in NZ), once again I highly recommend anyone considering a big move to NZ to take a good look at the website, www.expatexposed.com. It is full of actual, useful information. Some even posted by Kiwis.

I was at a wonderful, BBQ last night with a with a large group of Iranian friends and was asked if there was anything I missed about New Zealand. My immediate reply was, "nothing". My son standing next to me gave me a big smile and said, "Well, Mum, no hesitation there." I feel neither sad, nor embittered, just grateful I now live in such an inclusive and warm society despite the massive differences in religion and politics.

New Zealand: Cold, damp, uninsulated-moldering housing (these people have apparently not heard about double glazing nor insulation), crippling tax, ridiculously high electricity and food costs, over-rated educational system, zenophobic (you can call it "multicultural" all you like but they don't get on AT ALL) population, high cancer rates in all the agricultural spray zones, absolute ceiling on income in every area (especially for "outsiders"), less of the"clean and green" but more of the lean and mean, constant and high rates of Kiwis moving to Australia looking for a better lifestyle and please don't forget the violent crime rate.

This poster is a happy immigrant and that's swell for him/her. I say give it time, mate, give it time. It took me a few years to learn what was beneath the surface..... Also stay north of the Bombays. Wellington is not bad if you can handle the constant, chilling winds and provided you stay away from the suburbs. Christchurch is skinhead central with awful air quality. Nelson is unaffordable. Dunedin looks great except for the freezing temps and the housing (zero insulation) conditions.

All in all, New Zealand is carefully packaged by the NZ government to look dreamy to immigrants (because Kiwis are vacating in droves and they are losing their labour force) whereas the reality is quite different. I should also call attention to the 'poverty trap' aspect. Once you get your life relocated in NZ, you may not be able to afford to get yourself out. Ask around before you buy into it. Personally, I'd take a good look at Australia. All the natural wonders are there too, you can earn commensurate to your qualifications and they actually have some culture and very friendly people.

[Insubordination]

No country is all bad but once you've decided that it is, you start gathering evidence of all the bad things until you've decided that it 100% sucks. Then you meet with friends who think the same and the disease spreads. I've seen it happen.

The NZ government not giving realistic advice about NZ is one thing but countries are designed to make their own people feel comfortable and at home. A country isn't catered to you and your life experiences.

Comparing to other cultures and finding NZ wanting, really isn't going to help. Your happiness and situation is your responsibility. Start looking for good things instead and solving problems as they arrive (or go back, as many have done). Going on a website bitching about a country probably won't achieve a lot of positive outcomes.

Disclaimer: Have only been to Auckland for one night in transit. Don't know about the promises the government makes to new migrants.

[mmcmorrow]

Thanks again for sharing your experience and personal perspective on your time in NZ. It's great that people can hear a range of voices if they're considering travelling, working or migrating here. I do have a few things to add.

I promise to give some thought to your advice to take a look at Australia. True, I did have a bit of a gander during the year I spent living there and annual trips to various Oz cities for work or travel. But there's always more to learn. I've enjoyed my times in Australia and would encourage anyone who's considering going there to live or work - though migration is harder for various reasons. To give just one example, the upper limit for skilled migration to Australia is (I think) 43, whereas for NZ it's 56. Compared to NZ, Australia has a larger economy and, in particular, a huge mining industry, which means incomes and job opportunities are greater. However, Australia does have its own challenges with regard to racism etc. And the climate over here in Auckland is more to my liking.

As for violent crime, while there's no room for complacency, it's not the case that this is especially high in comparative terms. In rates of murder, gun crimes etc, New Zealand is mid-ranked, in the same ball-park as countries like Denmark, Switzerland and Singapore. It does worse in rates of assault, but even here, is in the same bracket as the UK, Australia, the US, Canada etc. Everything's relative. Nearly everyone I knew in Brazil had been on the wrong end of gun crime. The week before we left, my partner had a gun pointed at her head when she was stuck in traffic - something you don't tend to read about in the newspapers here, which still pad out the day's highlights with 'cat-stuck-up-a-tree' type stories.

I'm also a little surprised by your description of Christchurch as 'skinhead central'. I spent quite a bit of the last year working down there, mostly staying with a female couple I know well. While it's true that one of them has a fairly close crop, I don't think anyone would describe her as a skinhead. She has, in fact, an active interest in Buddhism. More to the point, as this is an ELT forum, I visited various language schools in the city, which I found to be very well-resourced and managed institutions with a friendly, caring atmosphere. Quite often I'd turn up on a Friday to see a leaving party for students from all over the world who were literally in tears at having to leave. And a French couple I know who have migrated there are pretty happy with their lot, with their young kids getting on well in their multicultural schools. In winter, the family can be at the skifield within the hour - in summers, they spend their weekends exploring the beautiful coastline, walking in the parks etc etc. And I'm sure you'll be glad to know that the air quality - the problem is wood-burning stoves - has been improving. Compared to Sao Paulo, it felt like breathing pure oxygen, believe me!

Though we don't see eye to eye on a lot of issues, we do have one thing in common, which is Iranian friends. I got to know Iranians here in Auckland partly through teaching asylum-seekers through this voluntary organisation. I think the fact that NZ has a national scheme of this type, funded by government and business donations is some testament to the existence of thousands of tolerant, altruistic people in this country. I also contribute to the training of other voluntary tutors, and seeing hundreds of people from my neighbourhood alone, from all walks of life, volunteering to spend their free time helping migrants is inspiring. My partner used to run the equivalent scheme in North London - in the UK, there was no national body and individual schemes were chronically short of funding. In contrast, last year, the NZ body was able to run a fully-funded national conference with international speakers and participants in similar schemes from as far away as Canada. For a small country, I think that's quite an achievement.

So, there you have it. A different perspective. I actually run a podcast for international students which includes quite a bit of cultural content, in case anyone's interested. I think anyone considering migrating should realise it's likely to be challenging and they should find out as much as they can about the place and how it might mesh with their lifestyles and values. But I don't see it as especially a bad reflection on NZ if largish numbers of Kiwis choose to take their chances overseas. It's not that unusual if you look at other small, outlying countries around the world and the ebb and flow it sets up is, I think, a good thing for the country and its culture.

Martin McMorrow, Auckland, NZ

[Le Petit Prince]

It always strikes me as incredible that French people actually live in that part of the world...I met two in Auckland. I'd have thought les francais would turn to dust or something in NZ. God save the Queen!!
The Kiwis can talk all they want to about their burgeoning, multi-cultural society...a beacon to the hapless nations of the world....etc.
To me the place always seemed like Manchester circa 1953..albeit with volcanoes.

[hellionzap]

FYI
In regards to "skin-head central"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nati...l-in-Christchurch

[hellionzap]

FYI

"Skinhead Central" contd.

Quote:
New Brighton Residents Association member George Aorangi Stanley said "boot boys" had been spotted "hanging around looking menacing".

"I don't know if you'd consider it patrolling. I just consider them as contributing to the tension."

The group had correctly tapped into local concern about crime and safety, she said. "It's the main topic of conversation at the [Residents Association] meetings."

Aorangi Stanley said the association had discussed doing their own patrols � a "reclaim the night" action � to increase safety.

Christchurch Mayor Bob Parker said the trend was "unacceptable".

"I would be disturbed to find out that we had a vigilante approach to security going on.

"Well-meaning amateurs" could easily become "loose cannons", Parker said.

Anything associated with Chapman and his "brand" would come with "a lot of history attached", he said.


I don't suppose your Buddhist, female, couple friends had anything to do with this little tea party......

[hellionzap]

OK, so you are saying that you "don't see it as an especially bad reflection on NZ if largish numbers of Kiwis take their chances overseas" .......By "largish" you do mean:

Quote:
Govt fails to halt business exodus - CMA
The Government is failing to curb the move of businesses and Kiwis offshore particularly to Australia, the Canterbury Manufacturers' Association says.
Manufacturers such as furniture makers were in danger of becoming an endangered species, the association's chief executive, John Walley, said...
Statistics New Zealand said that in the 12 months to November, the net permanent flow of migrants to Australia was 27,200, the highest net outflow for a November year since 32,700 in 1988.

This is the exiting work force we are talking about. And they will need to be replaced by .......someone? High school students as seen in all retail outlets now and soon by expats, brought in with a false impression laid out by the NZ government.

(And one of Australia's responses to this is:
http://news.theage.com.au/b...0091202-k5jl.html )

And in regards to "violent crime":
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/28/2/42672411.pdf
Quote:Crime: Crime is high. New Zealand is second only to Ireland in 26 OECD countries in internationally comparable data on vehicle, theft and contact crimes. 22% of New Zealanders experienced such a crime in a 12-month period, compared to an OECD average of 16%.

Here are a few cautionary tales which is your standard style of violence that pervades NZ culture, often perpetrated by youths:


Korean Student Attacked In Christchurch
Tue Sep 01, 2009
http://www.stuff.co.nz/nati...d-in-Christchurch
Quote:
A Korean student had a knife held to his throat and was hit and kicked to the ground in an unprovoked attack at a Christchurch bus stop.

(Good Old Crime Free New Zealand--at least it's better than Brazil)

If you're interested:
Murder stats try http://www.nationmaster.com...urders-per-capita
assaults per capita http://www.nationmaster.com...lts-per-capitanor
rapes http://www.nationmaster.com...-rapes-per-

French Tourist Raped At Gunpoint
Thu Sep 10, 2009
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/n...objectid=10596370
Quote:The 24-year-old traveller had hitchhiked his way through Canada and Australia without incident. He had been touring the North Island when he was picked up by Kitai while hitchhiking on State Highway 35 in the eastern Bay of Plenty.
Quote:Tourism is a big part of this area and everyone goes out of their way to help people ... It was a shock for this community. Everyone was outraged by it," the detective said.

Yes, yes, everyone is always "dismayed" and "outraged" AFTER these incidents.

Dairy Owner Beats Thugs With Brolly
Mon Sep 14, 2009
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/n...objectid=10597097
Quote:
Mr Singh was at the cash register on Saturday night when two men came in, one jumping the counter while the other pointed the weapon
Quote:The two robberies were among four in the area on Saturday night
Every saturday...robbery for party time.....these guys got it real easy.


Youth Crime In NZ Growing
Sat Oct 03, 2009
http://iwritebrief2.blogspo.../new-zealand.html
Quote:Across the world New Zealand is considered to be a clean and green country. A country where a comfortable lifestyle can be easily obtained and a country where it is safe to raise a family. But lately our crime rate appears to be increasing.


Sex Attacks In Mangere , Auckland
Wed Oct 28, 2009
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/n...objectid=10605856
Quote:Four daylight attacks, one of them the rape of an 8-year-old girl, have been committed in an alleyway that runs behind Nga Iwi Primary School in Mangere
Quote:He said the walkway between behind Nga Iwi Primary School which links Cape Road and Mascot Avenue "is to be avoided where possible".
The walk-way is the scene where four daylight attacks, one of them the rape of an 8-year-old girl, have been committed in the past days.

Quote:Crime: Crime is high. New Zealand is second only to Ireland in 26 OECD countries in internationally comparable data on vehicle, theft and contact crimes. 22% of New Zealanders experienced such a crime in a 12-month period, compared to an OECD average of 16%.
You can click on each link to get more details on what sort of crime is more frequent in the subsequent PDF files. Assualts and threats seems to be quite high followed by burglary with entry.



And the standard "Home Invasion" violent crime, always a favourite in NZ:

Teen Gang Prospects Jailed For Tourist Rape
Quote:A Japanese tourist was brutally raped and robbed in her bedroom by two teenage gang prospects, as her Opotiki host family watched television in another room.

Today her attackers Ranginui Rahi, 18, and Mark Hati, 16, both of Opotiki, were convicted and sentenced in Whakatane District Court to nine years' imprisonment for rape and sexual violation.

Judge Peter Rollo also sentenced them to four years' jail for aggravated robbery to be served concurrently.

"It was a disgusting, brutal, degrading crime - a prolonged and violent attack on a young Japanese tourist to our country," Judge Rollo said.

He said Hati and Rahi had damaged their 22-year-old victim's mana as well as physically injuring her internally and externally.

"You treated her with degrading violence for your own sexual pleasure."

Flanked by police officers, the teenagers stood with blank faces and hands clasped in front of them as the judge told how they broke into the Ford Street house on the night of August 31.

Rahi was armed with a baseball bat while Hati had a piece of firewood.

Judge Rollo said they saw the host family watching TV and crept into the girl's room to steal a laptop they had seen through the window.

Finding her in the room, they shut the door and each raped her several times and forced her to perform oral sex on them, all the while threatening her and searching the room for valuables, Judge Rollo said.

The pair were caught by police two days later and entered guilty pleas soon after.

The judge said Hati had been prospecting for the Mongrel Mob since he was 13 and said he expected to become a patched member as a result of this offending when he was released from prison.

Detective Senior Sergeant Greg Standen said police would convey the outcome to the victim, who was still in New Zealand, as soon as she could be contacted and they had contacted the Japanese Embassy.

And these lovely girls in Opotiki
http://www.stuff.co.nz/nati...n-Opotiki-killing
Quote:
Two teenage girls were found guilty today of murdering retired Opotiki school teacher John Rowe by beating him repeatedly with his own walking sticks.

Courtney Churchward, 18, and Lori-lea Waiora Te Wini, 15, who had her name suppression lifted today, repeatedly beat the frail, 78-year-old man until he died on November 25 last year.

The girls then made his house look as though it had been trashed and took his wallet.

They said they only wanted to knock the man out, so they could rob him.



There's just too much of this to choose from.