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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| rusmeister wrote: |
| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
I understand the OP's frustration. And I'm certainly not saying that an unrelated degree makes you a better teacher.
I wonder, though, what message the degreeless teacher sends to students. Maybe "you all need to get educated- I have no such need."
Dedicating your life to educating others without educating yourself seems...inappropriate.
I have hired a number of teachers without degrees- provided that they had considerable alternative education.
But being a teacher simply without a decent level of education doesn't sit well with me.
Best,
Justin |
My (rather Chestertonian) objection would be to the assumption that spending your life's time at a college "educates" you, while spending it working abroad (or anywhere at all) does not.
Now I do believe in the value of academic learning. I do not believe that obtaining a diploma or license is a guarantee of it. I completed my degrees by age 30, and my epiphany - where I really began learning, happened at age 38. I learned that first of all, my diplomas made me think I knew something, when in reality I didn't.
As G.K. Chesterton said, there ARE no 'uneducated people'. The fact that the state naturally wants to extend its power over the people under its control via what GBBB called "credentialism" is no guarantee that the so-called education will be any more valuable than what can be learned elsewhere. |
Yes, and sometimes university education might actually make you dumber. Sometimes university professors beat around ideas that are not correct and young people just expect their ideas due to the fact that they have no real world experience.
Sometimes it is scary how university professors can sometimes just say something to young people and it is accepted without debate. |
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jdl
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 632
Location: cyberspace
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Just a few more quotes on education and experience.....
Bachelor's degrees make pretty good placemats if you get 'em laminated.
Jeph Jacques,
That's what college is for - getting as many bad decisions as possible out of the way before you're forced into the real world. I keep a checklist of 'em on the wall in my room.
Jeph Jacques,
Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices.
Laurence J. Peter
I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Mark Twain
The great aim of education is not knowledge but action.
Herbert Spencer |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| santi84 wrote: |
You will find different opinions. Personally, I would expect my own instructor or my child's instructor to have at least some university and some form of teaching qualification. I don't think it is unreasonable for students or parents to expect the same from an ESL/EFL teacher.
I don't think anyone expects a 22 year old liberal arts graduate with zero teaching experience to be a better teacher than a 7 year pro, but they have to draw the line somewhere.
I have a university degree (with a TESL concentration) and 30 university credit TESL certificate. Personally, I found the most helpful course to actually be my French classes - where I could observe good teaching practices (aside from my own practicum).
I'm conflicted on this issue - I think that life experience is important, but I also think that a teacher should educate themselves formally as well. Not just the initial training, but continued training. |
Of course the question is why does that education have to be at a university?
I have read many books on education on my own, probably more than one would read in an education program. |
Good question ^_^ I'm not sure of the answer. The vast majority of my "education" came from working in a police department from age 19-26, not from university  The degree itself is just a piece of paper that sits on my mantle and helps me land a job interview  |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
| JZer wrote: |
| santi84 wrote: |
You will find different opinions. Personally, I would expect my own instructor or my child's instructor to have at least some university and some form of teaching qualification. I don't think it is unreasonable for students or parents to expect the same from an ESL/EFL teacher.
I don't think anyone expects a 22 year old liberal arts graduate with zero teaching experience to be a better teacher than a 7 year pro, but they have to draw the line somewhere.
I have a university degree (with a TESL concentration) and 30 university credit TESL certificate. Personally, I found the most helpful course to actually be my French classes - where I could observe good teaching practices (aside from my own practicum).
I'm conflicted on this issue - I think that life experience is important, but I also think that a teacher should educate themselves formally as well. Not just the initial training, but continued training. |
Of course the question is why does that education have to be at a university?
I have read many books on education on my own, probably more than one would read in an education program. |
Good question ^_^ I'm not sure of the answer. The vast majority of my "education" came from working in a police department from age 19-26, not from university The degree itself is just a piece of paper that sits on my mantle and helps me land a job interview |
I fully understand the practical use of a diploma. The question is what does having a college diploma actually guarantee an employer? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Good question ^_^ I'm not sure of the answer. The vast majority of my "education" came from working in a police department from age 19-26, not from university Shocked The degree itself is just a piece of paper that sits on my mantle and helps me land a job interview Surprised |
It is interesting that everyone wants a trained teacher. Some research has suggested that people teaching with B.A.'s and not majoring in education and people with a B.A. in Education are just as effective classroom teachers.
This information was collected in the US due to the fact of a teacher shortage and many people with only a B.A. teaching in public schools. Not only for teachers but can any skill really be learned in a classroom?
Maybe skills that do not require much human interaction may have a strong correlation of effectiveness between classroom learning and practical applications. |
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jdl
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 632
Location: cyberspace
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Why hire a trained teacher when you can hire some one who has attended the 'school of life'. Why hire anyone who has spend 5-7 years studying and interning in a rather specialized field such as teaching. Makes no sense does it.
After all, the doctor/dentist/lawyer I go to has no formal training beyond what she learned in 'real life'. She is truly exceptional.
Well as long as the mechanic for my car knows what he is doing! Damn new cars....everything is computerized....can't fix them myself anymore. I wonder if trades/professiuons other than automotive mechanic have evolved with the times where actual training and educatiuon is a necessity in order to do the job.
Seems nowadays that not every 'joe' can fix my car, work on my teeth, teach my children, cure my illness, etc.
What have things become? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| After all, the doctor/dentist/lawyer I go to has no formal training beyond what she learned in 'real life'. She is truly exceptional. |
Your argument is very weak. Someone can easily buy all the books on Amazon that are read in a Education program and one can teach without formal qualifications and learn to teach.
Few people have access to the proper medical equipment to teach themselves. Not to mention that one would have a hard time to find someone to try their skills on. |
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jdl
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 632
Location: cyberspace
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed the ability to read is a powerful tool and access to resources is critical in learning. I suppose it is possible that all individuals could be self taught.....perhaps even teach themselves to read...... medical books no less if given the necessary resources.
Perhaps there is no need for teachers as a profession? A world of learning without teaching.....the sound of one hand clapping. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Why hire a trained teacher when you can hire some one who has attended the 'school of life'. Why hire anyone who has spend 5-7 years studying and interning in a rather specialized field such as teaching. Makes no sense does it. |
I don't think it's that cut and dried. I certainly agree with you that training (doing actual teaching as some of the student teaching programs do for their degrees and also most DELTA and TESOL certificate programs) helps us. It's the same even in sports, yet there are people who have a natural ability that is sometimes gained because of their background,genes, experiences, etc.
Actually some of the better auto mechanics I have met weren't offically licensed ones. They were trained mechanics working in factories, but not for autos. The auto mechanic work they did was moonlighting.
So I believe it's more a combination of theoretical background and training and actual experience that makes better teachers. Some of the people in management that I work for 'theoretically' should be great teachers, and they probably could write a better research paper than I could. But (and this is huge but), when it comes to actual teaching, they don't do so well.
Why? Well perhaps they spend a little too much time focusing on what teaching could be rather than actually doing it. Ina similar vein, I have met some 'horrible' doctors from the point of view of lacking the ability to explain what the problem probably is, and also just having terrible bedside manner. I have also had a few doctors that were painfully shy (made my wife chuckle when I had a rash alongside my privates), but they did manage to get the job done.
So this discussion will probably never find a real answer. Some of the ideas that education is a visa screening requirement is true (it generally is in Japan, as your degree will often have little or no relation to what you teach), but also it does point to what some posters have referred to already; how can you be a 'formal' school teacher and not value formal education by completing a degree yourself? |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
So this discussion will probably never find a real answer. Some of the ideas that education is a visa screening requirement is true (it generally is in Japan, as your degree will often have little or no relation to what you teach), but also it does point to what some posters have referred to already; how can you be a 'formal' school teacher and not value formal education by completing a degree yourself? |
I don't think it is whether discussions can find answers but whether people will accept a common answer (ie, identify the truth). (Nit-picking is aimed at striving for more precise speech...)
The real kicking back is done by the teachers who got their certificates (especially state-sponsored/approved ones that took a couple of years of univ. on top of their degrees), and discovered that that "training" does little or nothing to teach them to teach.
State licensing is generally about state control, and skills taught tend to be incidental. More generally speaking, formal education tends to devolve around the real goal of the institution - in private institutions, this is generally money. Requirements - and attendant administration/ bureaucracy are aimed at producing the direct goal desired by the institution (meaning the people who established it or who now control it). The larger an institution gets, the more this direct goal swamps the ostensible goal (of teaching something). Thus, I think formal education has a tendency over time to become less valuable; the people who learn and learn well tend more to do so, not thanks to the institution, but thanks to their drive to learn and to a greater extent, to teach themselves - and of course, truly dedicated instructors in an institution can also counteract that trend, but again, as the institution gets larger, they have less overall effect. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I don't think it's that cut and dried. I certainly agree with you that training (doing actual teaching as some of the student teaching programs do for their degrees and also most DELTA and TESOL certificate programs) helps us. It's the same even in sports, yet there are people who have a natural ability that is sometimes gained because of their background,genes, experiences, etc. |
I think in some fields that it is really impossible to train people. You can only teach people theory. Until they go out and do it on their own they really do not know how to do whatever they have been trained to do. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Thus, I think formal education has a tendency over time to become less valuable; the people who learn and learn well tend more to do so, not thanks to the institution, but thanks to their drive to learn and to a greater extent, to teach themselves - and of course, truly dedicated instructors in an institution can also counteract that trend, but again, as the institution gets larger, they have less overall effect. |
I agree that people who learn well do so because of their drive. The only problem is that it would be impossible for most people to study things like space shuttles and going into outer space on your own. An individual would not have the opportunity to use the equipment on their own. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Thus, I think formal education has a tendency over time to become less valuable; the people who learn and learn well tend more to do so, not thanks to the institution, but thanks to their drive to learn and to a greater extent, to teach themselves - and of course, truly dedicated instructors in an institution can also counteract that trend, but again, as the institution gets larger, they have less overall effect. |
I agree that people who learn well do so because of their drive. The only problem is that it would be impossible for most people to study things like space shuttles and going into outer space on your own. An individual would not have the opportunity to use the equipment on their own. |
Quite true. But the institutions that teach those things, while perhaps being large and bureaucratic, do not teach those things within large and bureaucratic frameworks. IOW, it's a huge exception to most things that most higher institutions teach most people. |
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tudodude
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Nice replies.
Keep it realistic. We are talking TEFL in Thailand, not unqualified doctors and not even PGCE teachers at that, and such other examples thrown around. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| tudodude wrote: |
Nice replies.
Keep it realistic. We are talking TEFL in Thailand, not unqualified doctors and not even PGCE teachers at that, and such other examples thrown around. |
You never said Thailand before  |
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