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3701 W.119th
Joined: 26 Feb 2014 Posts: 386 Location: Central China
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Accommodation is your major fixed expense, and there's not much difference between Shanghai and Beijing (I've actually been told housing in Beijing is more expensive, but I'm not sure). So the Shanghai role definitely looks a better bet for saving money.
No idea about Fuzhou, sorry. |
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Mellow Fellow
Joined: 07 Oct 2014 Posts: 52
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Banner is right... Private tutoring is the way to go with a uni job that gives you a free furnished apartment. If you don't do this the only way to save in China is to have more than one roommate. Still, unless you are teaching at an international or AP school your salary will probably be about 120% of your total expenses. So don't come to China if it is for the money. Most people come here for a little fun and to see the historic sites. Definitely don't come here if you have a student loan or mortgage to repay back home in dollars or euros. |
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drjtrekker
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 251
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Why would anyone come to this place and want to work as much or more than they would back home? EEEkkkk....so many refarded laowai in this refarded place. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 406
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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The Shanghai one if you haven't hustled before. The Fuzhou one if you have hustled before and know you're good at it. I would think at the Shanghai one you could probably save at least 2k usd per month. Maybe more like 2.5k. Which websites did you use in your search? |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 406
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Mellow Fellow wrote: |
Banner is right... Private tutoring is the way to go with a uni job that gives you a free furnished apartment. If you don't do this the only way to save in China is to have more than one roommate. Still, unless you are teaching at an international or AP school your salary will probably be about 120% of your total expenses. So don't come to China if it is for the money. Most people come here for a little fun and to see the historic sites. Definitely don't come here if you have a student loan or mortgage to repay back home in dollars or euros. |
Have you ever worked in China? I can save about half of what I'm paid (if you include the airfare reimbursement) and I have a low paying uni job. There are a lot of jobs that pay double or triple what I get. You could easily go on two one-month vacations in se asia each year and save maybe $1,000 usd per month. I would have to try pretty hard to spend 10,000yuan per month here with free housing...the only thing I can think of is buying a car or eating like an emperor. Maybe there are some expensive clubs or bars where you can blow it pretty fast. Having a mistress? |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014 Posts: 108
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:40 am Post subject: |
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OK thanks everyone for the help. Looks like I'll take the Shanghai job if I get past the interview stage. I imagine it's easier to get private work in Shanghai than Fuzhou as well as Shanghai is a bigger and richer city?
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Why would anyone come to this place and want to work as much or more than they would back home? EEEkkkk....so many refarded laowai in this refarded place. |
Alright, I'll bite...
- For a recent grad back home with limited work experience, something like 21000 RMB a month (25k GBP a year) would be regarded as very respectable money. Most grads finishing university will be on significantly less - think more like 15000 RMB a month as an average.
- Those figures are before the taxman has his cut. Someone earning the afromentioned 21000RMB a month (remember, that's a top 20% wage - most are on much less) will actually be taking home 16700RMB a month.
- After you get your 16700RMB, you'll then have to pay for a place to stay. Count on one room in a shared house costing 4000RMB a month. If you're unfortunate enough to live in London, it'll be more like 6000 RMB a month. But let's say 4000RMB.
- That gives you 12700RMB left. Even if you totally no-lifed it to the max and were fortunate enough to be able to walk to work, thus incurring no transport expenses and not needing a car (i.e. best case scenario - it could be a lot worse - for instance if you're in London count on paying 1500RMB a month for tube transport), you'll probably save about 10000RMB.
Remember - that's doing absolutely NOTHING after work. No post-work pint with your colleagues. No going out at weekends. Buying food from budget supermarkets. You're living in a room in a shared house with 3 or 4 other people. The kind of job that pays this much after uni comes with a lot more demands, stress, and work hours than an ESL job. And this is something only the top 20% or so are 'fortunate' enough to be able to achieve! Most young people in the UK make significantly less money than I have outlined here.
Whereas in China by the looks of it, one can save that 10000RMB and more, plus they get to have their own decent apartment and can still afford to have some semblance of a life while doing it.
Plus in the UK if you get a part time job after work, chances are it will be taxed as 95% of companies follow the law there. In China (and the rest of SEA) private tutoring is paid in cash and untaxed so you get to take home far more money if you're willing to put in extra hours.
Last edited by ESL104 on Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010 Posts: 4724 Location: China
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: |
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There is another consideration about comparing China with home and that is how the China years will be regarded by an employer when you get back.
Unless you go into something educational, or acquire Chinese language skills, I feel it will be regarded like a gap year picking fruit in Queensland. |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014 Posts: 108
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Non Sequitur wrote: |
There is another consideration about comparing China with home and that is how the China years will be regarded by an employer when you get back.
Unless you go into something educational, or acquire Chinese language skills, I feel it will be regarded like a gap year picking fruit in Queensland. |
Well yeah but I guess that's only really a concern if you could otherwise be doing some work with 'prospects' back home, which isn't all that easy to come by.
I certainly think for instance, someone who is earning 25k GBP a year in London, but is with a Law firm, will have passed the LPC exams in a couple of years and will then be a fully qualified lawyer, would be well advised to stay put where they are, even though 25k GBP a year would allow almost no savings in London at all and there's no doubt the job is a LOT more stressful than ESL with much longer hours. The future payoff makes it worth it.
If the alternative to ESL is going to be working in a supermarket, or in a factory, or doing waiter/waitressing work, I think it becomes pretty debatable whether that kind of 'experience' is going to be valued by decent employers for decent jobs in the West. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 406
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I did the math roughly and earning 6k rmb per month here with a free apartment is about the same living conditions and savings potential as earning around $35k in Seattle. The biggest difference is cars. The initial price is usually lower in America and used cars are so cheap in America that it's much easier to own a car. I haven't really missed it though. Cheaper to eat out here but I didn't really factor that in because I rarely eat out. So a job paying 12k rmb per month here is maybe like earning in the low $50ks in Seattle. 18k rmb per month is like making around $70k. This would be with housing provided and the pay is after-tax.
I was a lawyer and it's not all it's cracked up to be. I remember when we were nearing graduation and a friend of mine realized that after going through law school he will be making less than he did as a prison guard.
Any job that pays well in America will work you like a dog compared to esl. There isn't even a comparison. And there is very little upward mobility.
If I go back it's either law (no fucking way) or $10-12 an hour. I could get my teaching license but it would be extremely hard to get hired with a JD. If I just had a bachelor's it would be much easier. If I learned Chinese it would open more doors than anything I could do back home. I always loved cooking and culinary school here has got to cost nothing compared to the states...plus you'd be unique back in the states.
I think some of the older people don't know how absolutely shitty it is for young people in some western countries. I have a friend who works night security at a hospital, which is a good paying job at around $18 per hour, but the living expenses are so high he can't save much at all. Plus he gets bitten or injured by homeless druggies all the time. Something got screwed up with his payment plan for his student loans so he's shelling out $600 a month for that. If I stay here it appears that my student loans will be forgiven in 20 years or so on the income based repayment plan. That's a nice bonus.
If I was making 12k rmb per month at a public school, which seems realistic, my situation would be:
Work around 20 hours per week
Live in a decent apartment until I buy one.
Save at least $1k every month
4 months paid vacation, 3 of which I would spend travelling.
Eat and drink pretty much whatever I want outside luxury goods.
In 10 years (I would be in my early 40's):
Used that $1k per month to pay off my mortgage early
Now with rental income I am at a very good income level.
If I haven't yet, I would be looking at owning a house outright in China within the next few years.
Then I'm basically set for retirement. Rental income would easily cover my living expenses here if I owned my own place in China.
What job in the US can offer me all that? |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014 Posts: 108
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:39 am Post subject: |
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jm21 wrote: |
I think some of the older people don't know how absolutely shitty it is for young people in some western countries. I have a friend who works night security at a hospital, which is a good paying job at around $18 per hour, but the living expenses are so high he can't save much at all. Plus he gets bitten or injured by homeless druggies all the time. Something got screwed up with his payment plan for his student loans so he's shelling out $600 a month for that. If I stay here it appears that my student loans will be forgiven in 20 years or so on the income based repayment plan. That's a nice bonus.
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Yeah, this.
Also damn, I forgot to deduct student loan repayments from my UK cost of living. The 21k RMB a month job now onto takes home 16k RMB. And of course there's no housing included. Take off another 4k for that. So 12k RMB left over after rent and taxes
In comparison the afromentioned 12k RMB job with housing nets you 11100RMB after tax. Precious little difference...except of course you're working 20 hours in an easy job instead of 40 hours in a corporate box, and your holidays are much longer. Plus of course cost of living is lower in China.
I think if you're in the kind of career where in 5 years time or whatever you'll be making $100k+, then it's probably more financially beneficial to stick it out in the West, and maybe try and get one of those sweet expat deals when you're in your 40's or 50's and have built up a wealth of experience in your field.
Stuff like banking, finance, law, medicine...those kind of jobs with a very high ceiling on earnings make it worth sticking out in your 20's for. I know you said law wasn't all it's cracked up to be...but I was under the impression partners at law firms in New York and London made absolutely outrageous money? And the senior guys would still be pulling in $120k+? It's only at the lower levels it's not that great.
But for everyone else who isn't in one of those few 'high potential' careers, which is the majority of the workforce after all (and certainly the vast majority of those who work in SEA teaching ESL - and I mean no offence by this, I'm one of those people after all) who is or would be working some $20k-$50k job back home and would pretty much be in that kinda wage bracket forever, I don't think they're giving up much by teaching in SEA.
One thing I will do though is keep paying voluntary NIC's in the UK so I'll get the state pension when I retire (admittedly 45 years away but it never hurts to have a plan). Not sure if Americans can do this in they don't live in the USA - but for anyone who is a UK citizen it costs the equivilant of $18 a month and it'll mean you get about $650 a month when you retire and it's adjusted for inflation too. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 406
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:10 am Post subject: |
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For Americans you don't get credit for work in a foreign country done for a foreign employer. You are supposed to pay a bit over 13% social security and medicare tax on any self employment income no matter where you live. I would actually like to pay a relatively minor amount each year as it gets you medicare and maybe a couple hundred bucks a month. I'm trying to figure out what I could put as self-employment income without teaching privates....tempted to outright lie and make up a figure...what are the chances the IRS will come after you for paying more taxes?
If you went over to teach as a second career you'd get a lot more.
Yes, there are jobs that pay six figures to new law grads. But they are next to impossible to get for most people and almost everyone burns out after a year. We're talking about maybe 100 hours a week of mind-numbingly boring and incredibly detailed work with bosses who are total assholes.
With the recession in 2009 jobs dried up and craploads of people in their 20's and 30's went to law school or other grad achools to weather it out. Now the market is flooded. I worked in a small town and most lawyers were making around $40-50k gross or so it seemed like. If you have your own firm and do well for many years you can do really well financially, but it screws with your life. A guy I leased space from had done really well but he took his first real vacation in his whole life at the age of 67 (2 weeks in hawaii and he worked a couple hours every day). Didn't want to retire because the law firm and everything invested in it isn't worth jack without him. Personally I had not been on a vacation for 3 years and before that I could only leave for 10 days at a time and be safe. That's aside from the huge amount of stress that goes with the job. Guess which career has the highest rate of depression and substance abuse.
I remember going into work the morning after my dad died. Faxing in documents at midnight from Taiwan while on a 10 day vacation there. All sorts of bullshit you have to put up with. Judges don't give a damn about your personal life.
Some people luck out and stumble into a niche but definitely being a lawyer ain't what it used to be. |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014 Posts: 108
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:46 am Post subject: |
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jm21 wrote: |
For Americans you don't get credit for work in a foreign country done for a foreign employer. You are supposed to pay a bit over 13% social security and medicare tax on any self employment income no matter where you live. I would actually like to pay a relatively minor amount each year as it gets you medicare and maybe a couple hundred bucks a month. I'm trying to figure out what I could put as self-employment income without teaching privates....tempted to outright lie and make up a figure...what are the chances the IRS will come after you for paying more taxes?
If you went over to teach as a second career you'd get a lot more.
Yes, there are jobs that pay six figures to new law grads. But they are next to impossible to get for most people and almost everyone burns out after a year. We're talking about maybe 100 hours a week of mind-numbingly boring and incredibly detailed work with bosses who are total assholes.
With the recession in 2009 jobs dried up and craploads of people in their 20's and 30's went to law school or other grad achools to weather it out. Now the market is flooded. I worked in a small town and most lawyers were making around $40-50k gross or so it seemed like. If you have your own firm and do well for many years you can do really well financially, but it screws with your life. A guy I leased space from had done really well but he took his first real vacation in his whole life at the age of 67 (2 weeks in hawaii and he worked a couple hours every day). Didn't want to retire because the law firm and everything invested in it isn't worth jack without him. Personally I had not been on a vacation for 3 years and before that I could only leave for 10 days at a time and be safe. That's aside from the huge amount of stress that goes with the job. Guess which career has the highest rate of depression and substance abuse.
I remember going into work the morning after my dad died. Faxing in documents at midnight from Taiwan while on a 10 day vacation there. All sorts of bullshit you have to put up with. Judges don't give a damn about your personal life.
Some people luck out and stumble into a niche but definitely being a lawyer ain't what it used to be. |
Ah, sucks about the US tax system. In the UK you can pay 2.50 GBP a week (about $18 a month) which gets you the state pension of 420 GBP a month.
And actually, the reason I'm wanting to try and earn a fair bit of money quick is to get a deposit for a house back home. Thanks to a government scheme over there I (or a member of my family) gets 50% off the house my mum currently lives in (it's rented from the government now). It'd require 90k GBP to buy it outright but of course I only need 40% or so for a deposit, and I have 15k GBP already from various sources. So one year in China saving 1.5k GBP a month would have me pretty damn close to achieving that target, then over the next few years I could pay it all off with a combo of rental income and probably working in China a bit more. And once it's paid off there's the advantage of 1) Having an extra 500 GBP rent income a month from the property, which goes a fair distance to improving ones quality of life in SEA, and 2) In 45 years when I retire I'll still have that 500 GBP a month with the 420 GBP a month from the state...OK, 920 GBP a month isn't going to get anyone on the Times rich list but it's certainly a start towards having a long term future in SEA secured.
Probably worth be worth a year back home to get a PGCE at some point, though the logistics of that is a pain (i.e. universities want to interview you in person so you're fronting the cost of a plane ticket home for a course you might not even get on, plus the interview dates rarely coincide with school holidays). |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 406
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Yes, you've certainly got a better deal there. Australia has a pretty favorable pension scheme as well. Americans, as usual, prefer to spend the money on the military.
900gbp per month should be plenty. Hell, thats more than I make right now. Next year I start earning money again. Just remember to take some time to see the world while you're young. Had my dad die a few years ago (a year after he retired at 62) and then a few months later I had a skin cancer scare and a surgery to get it out. Brother had cancer at 18. My grandpa and uncle died very young from cancer. I will never work at a job with shit vacation again. Life can be damn short. |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014 Posts: 108
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Yeah the plan is to spend a few years buying that house (shouldn't take more than 5 in total), and then use the additional money to fund travels and a relaxed lifestyle. Currently only earning $1200 a month in Thailand and while it's OK you're definitely limited by money in a massive way. A few years in China working longer hours to pad the bank balance seems worth it, from my point of view. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 Posts: 406
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Yeah. I love Thailand but the wages seem really low. Here I have 4 months off and enough money to travel, even on my current salary. Had a nice month in Thailand this last summer. It's a good home base imho. Stuff is cheap here and taobao is convenient. I can go round trip to most places I want to visit for a few hundred bucks. Going to vietnam for 4 or 5 weeks this winter. Life could be far worse. |
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