Job Discussion Forums

[Bedouin]

Dear John

Hmmm....

Okay, well, let's put it like this: I'll answer each of your 20 points one at a time of course if you would at least have the courtesy to address the ONE single question I have put to you repeatedly in the last few posts.

It seem to me that every time I put this to you, you raise a whole series of other unrelated points. I do very honestly wonder why this might be?

Curiously, I thought it might be insighful if you reminded us again of your semantic distinction between anger and fear.

Kind regards

Sohail

[shadowfax]

Dear John Slat,

Re recent terminated discourse: Hear, hear! Well explicated.
Re countering of moonpie: forgive us if we thought it tendentious.
Re intrinsic value of English: apart from being English myself (but let me not be tendentious!), I offer three premisses for demonstrating the value of English as a global lingua franca: 1. It is THE pan-European language, as it derives from, and in its constituents still embraces, German, French, Latin and Celtic. Thus it is also the language of the Americas, whose populations are mostly European. We might also remember its contiguities, as an Aryan language, with Russian, Persian, Hindu, etc. 2. It has been productive of the most prolific, and perhaps the most accomplished body of literature in world history ( I posit the four great wheels of the mighty tetractys thus: Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespeare, Milton). 3. It is a language that was consciouslyadapted in the eighteenth century to be the language of empiricism, economics and science as well that of literature.
A further reason might be the existence of the OED, a dictionary unrivalled in English or in any other language.
For these reasons, I oppose the view that the validity of English as a globally focal lingua franca rests solely or primarily upon an economic basis, though I concede that that has been propitious.

[Steiner]

Having read this thread, I am very curious. Perhaps John is expected to know what "Islamic values" are as he lives in Saudi. Sohail, you won't tell John, but will you tell me? I'm just an outsider living in China whose curiousity has been aroused. What values exactly are being eroded by English?

[Bedouin]

Well, Steiner, let me put it like this:

If there were suddenly an urge in the world to learn Arabic and people in the States spent more time learning this language than studying democracy, liberalism, critical thinking, rationalism and so forth then it would be reasonable to conclude that Arabic would be marginalising Western values.

In many Gulf institutions, certainly where I've worked, there is far too much emphasis on English. I have taught in places where foundation students literally spend 70% of their time studying English sometimes for as long as 2 to 3 years. These are young men who would otherwise have been studying Islamic history, Islamic morals, Islamic exegesis, Quranic recitation, Hadith sciences, principles of Islamic jurisprudence, the Seera, Arabic language, Arabic rhetoric, Arabic language literature, etc. Over the years I have noticed that Arabic and Islamic studies have become increasigly marginalised as more resources are being diverted to English.

What's incredible is that a lot of these guys end up learning poor English skills and then being increasingly alienated from their own cultural values. This is just one example of how English conflicts with Islam.

Now, please, please do not misquote me or misunderstand me; English has a very important role to play in Islamic societies in order to access Western technologies but not at the expense of Islamic values and traditions. The French, Spanish, Italians and Germans understand the importance of English but they have not adopted it as a medium of instruction in higher education.

Incidentally, can you draw any parallels in China?

Regards

Sohail

[Steiner]

[Bedouin]

Thank you for your comments. Incidentally is that you with the cool hairdo?

Okay, I agree perhaps my example to illustrate my case isn't entirely relevant. But what sorts of values do you think are likely to emerge if 70% of the time you're focussing on English, with Eurocentric/Americancentric textbooks and Anglo-Western ESL teachers.

Imagine if American children had to study Arabic all day long, with Saudi teachers in dishdasha/ghutra and from books published by the Saudi equivalent of Longman? I'm sure the marginalised English teachers, history teachers, social studies teachers might feel a little resentful.

Regards

[Nomad Dan]

I recall being extemely careful to obey my principal's command at the ITC in Ras Tanura Saudi Arabia to be sure to never ever ever discuss anything western with students. I could not even use US cities to compare distances....It has to be between Riyadh and Jeddah or something. It was understandable in a way, but also extremely naive and mind-numbing.

I would love to raise up a child fluent in Arabic. I think that would be very desirable. I love languages, and think that Arabic is one of the greatest. I suppose it is considered number four behind English Mandarin and Spanish as far number of native speakers?

Does anyone have any data to support or refute that?

My personal battle is to create a dual language society in Texas. We are having a battle of minds between English only and Spanish....and Bedouin, I think that English is not the "Official Language" in the US specifically out of fear that if we do that, then Spanish becomes the "Unofficial Language".

We don't legislate language, I suppose.
In Dallas, the traditional WASPs have fled to the suburbs and what is left are Cambodians, Pakistanis, Ethiopians, Phillippinos, and a WHOLE bunch of Mexicans. Lots of languages in Dallas...mostly Spanish.

Don't you just reckon that the reason to learn English for the Arab would be to get a good job and be able to function internationally...not to learn the demonic lyrics of Brittany Spears?

Take Care All,
Nomad

[xnihil]

[Bedouin]

Hi Nomad

A lot of whaqt you say about the language situation in Texas resonates with me. I think it's appalling that there are forces campaigning to undermine Spanish.

As to your last point of course there are sound pragmatic reasons for learning English; I agree, but let's not fool ourselves that English is somehow always a good healthy positive experience.

A couple of weeks ago a young Egyptian man who just happens to have strong ESL skills told me that he wished to follow in the footsteps of EMINEM who he thought was a great role model. He then showed me a rap that he had been working on and which he took a lot of pride in. I read the first five or six lines and was frankly horrified. It was F this, F that, the bitch this, the bitch that, and so on. He had managed to adapt the crude violence and gratuitous abuse towards women to Arab culture in and through the English language.

What's my point? There is a lot of repulsive global youth culture that can that only be accessed in English. And please I'm not saying young Arab men are saints. But certainly English can add another layer of moral decadence. I do often wonder why a lot of young Arab men are impressed by the gangster culture of rap artists.

Sohail

[Bedouin]

Xnihil

I'm not implying that the values of West are necessarily an antithesis of Islam. I'm afraid, that's entirely your own reading.

As I said before, I'm referring to all Islamic values.

I suggest you read the posts again very carefully.


Sohail

[xnihil]

Sohail,
Not to be simplistic or condescending, but your correctly posted some of the values of Western society. I don't understand why you can't do the same for Islamic society and then we can figure out exactly how they may or may not be in conflict with the teaching of English.

You didn't answer my last question, either. Do you think that values can be taught in the classroom?

[Bedouin]

Xnihil

I don't understand why you don't just simply read the posts!

I never stated, at least not in this thread, that Islamic values conflict with the teaching of English. I said Islamic values are marginalised as a result of the increasing prominence of English in the curriculum in this region.

As for your question, I believe almost everything we do is underpinned by values not least teaching English!

Look start another thread and I'll be more than happy to participate in a discussion about values in ELT. I'll answer tomorrow.

That's it I'm done here!

Sohail

[Stephen Jones]

Dear Sohail,
It was a Saudi who introduced me to Eminem's tapes, and he's good.

If you seriously think that English and Western orientated subjects take up 70% of the Saudi school curriculum then you are living in a dream world.

[Steiner]

Sohail,
In any discussion, it is necessary to define confusing terms before moving on with the discussion. Otherwise, the participants are talking to each other but about very different things. This is why so many people have asked you to define what you mean by "Islamic values." As an outsider, I am led to believe by your dodging of the question that your concept of Islamic values is not something you want to reveal. This brings questions to mind.

[Brooks]

top languages:

1. Chinese
2. English
3. Hindustani (if Urdu and Hindi are combined, I think. Urdu and Hindi use different writing but before 1948 they were the same)
4.Spanish - 392 million
5. Russian - 277 million but I don`t think all are native speakers.
About 147 million people live in Russia, but there are Russians living in other countries, like Kazakhstan.
6. Arabic - 246 million - so I guess Arabic is number five in terms of native speakers.

now in terms of English and Islam - the perceived threat is the USA more than English. But Islam and English are not incompatible.
I think in the Arab world there is a fear of globalization.
When it comes to development, the Arab world is behind. So, one reaction is to be more conservative, or reactionary.
Now let`s think about Islam. There are 1 billion Muslims in the world. Approximately 25% speak Arabic. English enables Muslims to communicate with each other. Malaysia is a pro-English country for example. Their president is critical of the USA, but he thinks it is important for Malaysians to learn English.
Muhammed thought that people should travel so I assume he would support foreign language learning. One could argue that a person who does not study a foreign language does not understand his own.
So, an Arab can better understand Arabic by knowing another language.
But I am not saying it has to be English.

Now what about unemployment in the Arab world? It is a problem, and something that Arab universties need to address. Students need to learn skills that will land them a job. In Casablanca for example, unemployment is 25%. It is too high. So if students want to study Islam at a university, that`s fine. I hope they find work after they graduate.

I taught some Moroccans who knew four languages (Arabic, Berber, Spanish, and French) and I taught them English. They studied a foreign language in order to travel, or to find a job in another country or in Morocco. Morocco`s own king must know at least four languages.

So Bedouin, whose Islam are you talking about?

Brooks