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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| If you're talking about software for Japanese markets then you are dealing with the question of internationalization. |
| But Stephen Jones also wrote: |
If you mean producing a version of the software that is specifically adapted to use in a particular culture (that is to say changing the GUI and even the site map to be more appropriate for different circumstances) then localization is the correct term.
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Wouldn't software "for Japanese markets" be software that is specifically for "a particular culture"?? 
Here's a very simple and accurate definition of internationalization:
Internationalization: The process of generalizing a product so that it can handle multiple languages and cultural conventions without the need for redesign.
Copyright (c) 2007: Globalization and Localization Association
http://www.gala-global.org/who-we-are.html
My company works with GALA all the time on standards and practices. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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People keep arguing over the exact definitions, but I believe we're both basically saying the same thing.
Internationalization or Internationalization + localizability as Kaplan prefers to put it, means that the software can be customized for a particular language and locale without touching the source code.
Or to put it another way internationalization is the job of the programmer, and localization is the job of the translator.
The problem however is that it is not that simple, for the business logic often changes from locale to locale. Interest in Canada for example is calculated in a different way from interest in the States, and any piece of financial software will need to adapt to local accounting conventions, as would a piece of hotel reservation software and much more. In many cases you may find you need to go back to the drawing board and write a completely different piece of software for the particular market.
One failure in Windows XP localization is that there is no locale for English (India) which means that you have to set Excel and other software to format lakhs and crores by hand. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| People keep arguing over the exact definitions, but I believe we're both basically saying the same thing. |
I don't think so. See my last post, in which you say that internationalization and localization are essentially the same. If you want to criticize arguments, you'd better be prepared with precise terminology. |
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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| People keep arguing over the exact definitions, but I believe we're both basically saying the same thing. |
you'd better be prepared with precise terminology. |
Clumsy sentence  |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| See my last post, in which you say that internationalization and localization are essentially the same. If you want to criticize arguments, you'd better be prepared with precise terminology. |
How can I say something in your post?
Are you saying I said internationalization and localization are the same? I said nothing of the sort.
Are you saying internationalization and localization are the same; sorry but I totally disagree.
Kaplan uses the term localizability. He says there are three factors, internationalization, locaclizability, and localization.
Internationalization and localizability are programming matters. You do not need to know anything about the language to do that.
Equally if the internationalization and localizability have been done correctly, then the translator responsible for localization doesn't need to know anything about programming software.
I am being precise and referring you to various posts by the leading authority on the subject. It is you who is being vague. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| How can I say something in your post? |
Because my post quoted your very own confused words -- twice. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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My statements were perfectly clear in context. You juxtaposed both of them out of context to create an imagined confusion. Cheap trick.
I have made it quite clear what is the difference between internationalization and localization. You're the one who appears to be getting the terms confused. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| I have made it quite clear what is the difference [sic] between internationalization and localization. |
Indeed. I'm glad you've convinced yourself of that -- after so much backpedaling and googling since your initial posts.
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Somewhat overgenerous with the sics there Henry.
The use of 'what is the difference' in a statement as opposed to a question is reasonably attested, and there is no syntactic reason why it should be incorrect.
The Time Corpus gives two examples of 'what is the difference' in statements compared to one for 'what the difference is". The BNC has three examples compared to fifteen for 'what the difference is' so if we combine the two the score if five to sixteen, or around 24% compared to 76% for the alternative, a percentage sufficient to consider it as a viable alternative. |
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eclectic
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Stephen Jones: pay Henry Cowell no mind, nor his stooges called jwbhomer or beefer. He (they) have been warned by Mr. Kalqukshi several times that if their petulant pedantry and provocations persist they will be removed permanently from the forum.
(see the last post by Mr. Kalqukshi on the Indonesian Forum under the "Please Dont laugh....Newbie" thread.)
In fact I have already pm'ed Mr. K about this latest outrageous and unprovoked behavior by Henry Cowell. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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I fail to see anything at all outrageous about Henry's posts. I think he is being a little petulant but that is just my opinion.
Why you want to ban one of the few members of the forum who knows what he's talking about is beyond me. This mad rush to denounce people to the thought police seems more suited to a totalitarian dictatorship than an English teachers' forum. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The estimable Stephen Jones wrote: |
| Why you want to ban one of the few members of the forum who knows what he's talking about is beyond me. |
Thank you, Master Jones. This is not the first time we've had a lively but still civilized exchange. 
| Stephen Jones wrote: |
Somewhat overgenerous with the sics there Henry.
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I used only one sic, Stephen, because only one was necessary. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I used only one sic, Stephen, because only one was necessary. |
But it wasn't necessary at all; it was misplaced. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Placement of sic is of course up to the reader. The original writer has no say in the matter.  |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Possibly true, but as a reader of your post I have a right to comment. |
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