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chinadad
Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 291
Location: chengdu
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 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Hi mike - looks like they're tightening up on the rules - like the 5 year rule and over 60 rule - suppose you'll be soon looking for new work, maybe on your family visa |
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Mr. English
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Chinese institutions are certainly untrustworthy, and judges in China are generally incompetent; the job is a "government job", not a job for someone who knows even a little about the law; many judges were clerks or secretaries in the court before they became judges and got the job because they had enough seniority. But as few labor disputes end in court, all of this means next to nothing. The key is to select your employer carefully and develop a good working relationship once you are there. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:38 am Post subject: |
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The employer, who sponsors a FT�s work visa, most certainly has got to be reckoned with. A pleasant working relationship is necessary to go on in the country just like the OP has. I doubt, however, that there are abundant opportunities with agreeable employers with terms and conditions that do not require a high degree of compromising and/or giving special attention to our passport permits over professionalism and quality of our work.
What FTs should know is that how the legal status in the country can, or can�t, protect them, if they want to stay on and that�s the issue I have attempted to bring up on the first page when I spooked a couple contributors, OP inclusive. Getting the stamp in your passport is a privilege that ought to come with responsibilities from three parties; the FT, employer and the authorities involved in the issuance of this honor. Otherwise, the abuse will take place. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| But as few labor disputes end in court, all of this means next to nothing. |
Where do u get this idea? |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| NoBillyNO wrote: |
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| But as few labor disputes end in court, all of this means next to nothing. |
Where do u get this idea? |
Ever see that magic trick where a guy pulls a rabbit out of a piece of headgear? |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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NoBillyNO wrote:
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Quote:
But as few labor disputes end in court, all of this means next to nothing.
Where do u get this idea?
Javelin of Radiance quote: Ever see that magic trick where a guy pulls a rabbit out of a piece of headgear? |
JoR, have you been hanging round this site.
http://www.mallusionist.com/
Check the number of labor disputes that do end up in court and see how the illusionist has pulled the wrong rabbit out of the hat, kind of like Bullwinkle on the Rockey and Bullwinkle Show. |
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Mr. English
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| It's a seat of the pants guess, and if you had ever worked in a legal system, as I have in the states, you would know that 99+% of all civil disputes are settled before any court action begins. I guess that China is no different from any other place in this respect. It is too much hassle to go to court, so most things settle. |
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Burke
Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 42
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| mike w wrote: |
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| The article is in the Communist China Daily to tell all foreigners that the local institutions are to be trusted and that laws rule in China. |
Think you should read the article again. I thought it was abut foreigners working illegally.
Or perhaps you just have something against those of us who have been here a long time without encountering any of the really bad employers? |
Mike is right. But honestly I don't know many teachers here who had more than one half way decent employer. And I think a lot of these schools want you to work illegally so they have something to hold over your head if you ever have a problem and start bitching. Why else would they accept teachers with L visas? |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Why else would they accept teachers with L visas? |
Agree with what you say, but another big reason is that there are some schools who do not have a license to employ foreign teachers,which means they cannot provide the documents required to obtain a 'Z' visa. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:32 am Post subject: |
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I doubt any wise individual would disagree that working illegally is risky and I suspect mostly unqualified would flock to unlicensed employers. What I am wondering about is that how a reasonable job seeker sees which employer is decent and which one has, or doesn�t have, the license to hire FTs. From the horse�s mouth, some schools, even the public ones, routinely arrange work permits for unsuspecting FTs.
| Burke wrote: |
| mike w wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The article is in the Communist China Daily to tell all foreigners that the local institutions are to be trusted and that laws rule in China. |
Think you should read the article again. I thought it was abut foreigners working illegally.
Or perhaps you just have something against those of us who have been here a long time without encountering any of the really bad employers? |
Mike is right. But honestly I don't know many teachers here who had more than one half way decent employer. And I think a lot of these schools want you to work illegally so they have something to hold over your head if you ever have a problem and start bitching. Why else would they accept teachers with L visas? |
A so called Release Letter may also be �something to hold over your head�. What does a local professional say/do, if the guest worker does not follow arrangements? Isn�t our legal status in the country somehow owned by our employers? The force of this �letter� seems to provide schools with the authority to make decisions whether FTs should or should not continue working in the county. I guess this is completely legal, because the �letters� are within the law. Are we to believe that a contractual �letter clause agreement� changes minds of unscrupulous employers? Of course, it may reduce the risk but by how much remains to be seen.
It is my observation that most people in the country see laws/regulations/agreements as unnecessary restrictions. Full of excuses, they run red lights, smoke under the no smoking signs, or bang with hammers or firecrackers in the middle of the night. What the local employers� excuses are should be as worrying, but some guests, who have tied themselves to places, committed unconditionally to their work and found ways or issues to compromise on may be more content than others.
Questionable practices of employers and consequences of FTs legal status in the country ought to be heard. Working assuredly legally may hand FTs an amount of trouble as much as it may when being employed illegally. When your status is legal your existence may well be in your employer�s hands as much as when your status is illegal. Your extended invitation may not only depend on whether you have the legal status but also whether you are ready to make concessions. And, concessions may have to come with red lights or hammers in your face.
I hope my controversial suggestion to the as controversial system hasn�t spooked too many souls in the business. |
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it'snotmyfault
Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by it'snotmyfault on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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it'snotmyfault
Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| mike w wrote: |
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| Why else would they accept teachers with L visas? |
Agree with what you say, but another big reason is that there are some schools who do not have a license to employ foreign teachers,which means they cannot provide the documents required to obtain a 'Z' visa. |
Plus it's cheap, a foreigner turns up with an L or F visa that they've paid for themselves, a lot of schools can't resist doing things on the cheap. Especially bottom of the barrel training schools.
@joe Sounds like your suggesting it's not that bad to work here illegally. If somebody goes to work (legally) thinking their employer has the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head with regards to release letters and working conditions etc, then China probably isn't the right place for that individual to work.
And to answer your query about how can you tell if a school is licensed to hire foreigners or not. erm... they'll process a Z-visa for you and provide you with an invitation letter.
Lots of people working here quite happily (and legally) regardless of the constant negativity from the likes of Bourke and B4UGO |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| it'snotmyfault wrote: |
| mike w wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Why else would they accept teachers with L visas? |
Agree with what you say, but another big reason is that there are some schools who do not have a license to employ foreign teachers,which means they cannot provide the documents required to obtain a 'Z' visa. |
............
@joe Sounds like your suggesting it's not that bad to work here illegally. If somebody goes to work (legally) thinking their employer has the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head with regards to release letters and working conditions etc, then China probably isn't the right place for that individual to work.
And to answer your query about how can you tell if a school is licensed to hire foreigners or not. erm... they'll process a Z-visa for you and provide you with an invitation letter.
Lots of people working here quite happily (and legally) regardless of the constant negativity from the likes of Bourke and B4UGO |
The invitation letter, which has to go through, I assume the central government authorities, may be a really good point here. This letter cannot be corrupt, can it? The truth is, however, that my "horse's mouth" statement comes with a horse that has not left and been in the country for a longer period of time. Changing employers in the country does not require an invitation letter as far as I know.
The suggestion that "lots of people working here quite happily" is, to my knowledge and from my brief experience here, pretty overstated. Perhaps, i'll have to stick around a bit longer to see the lights and perhaps i'll have to be more careful about choosing who I socialize with. More importantly, i'll need to adjust to the local approach to education, attitudes to work, laws, regulations, standards or the locals' ways dealing with foreigners. Then, once I do that, I hope i'll be protected well enough.
Thanks for the kind follow-up and advice. |
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