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Business English

 
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Chris78



Joined: 26 Jul 2013
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:51 pm    Post subject: Business English Reply with quote

anyone knows what the rates are when teaching English at a business (In Krakow) through a language school? 45 min lessons
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Louisdf



Joined: 05 Feb 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Krakow, 40-45PLN brutto would be a good rate. There are many native speakers so schools and companies can pick and choose quite easily.
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Janek



Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Krakow, Poland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Louisdf"]In Krakow, 40-45PLN brutto would be a good rate. There are many native speakers so schools and companies can pick and choose quite easily.[/quote]

No, 45 PLN/45 min should be the minimum rate for beginning teachers. Depending also on the distance to the center, the amount of hours in a row.

45 min only in the KBP for 40 PLN brutto gives you less than 10 PLN/hour after taxes, including running time and ticket price.

If this is a good rate, working at Tesco would be a good choice as well.

Companies in Krakow pay schools 100-150 PLN per hour. Self-amployed teachers charge more or less 120 PLN per hour
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Louisdf



Joined: 05 Feb 2013
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janek wrote:
Louisdf wrote:
In Krakow, 40-45PLN brutto would be a good rate. There are many native speakers so schools and companies can pick and choose quite easily.


No, 45 PLN/45 min should be the minimum rate for beginning teachers. Depending also on the distance to the center, the amount of hours in a row.

45 min only in the KBP for 40 PLN brutto gives you less than 10 PLN/hour after taxes, including running time and ticket price.

If this is a good rate, working at Tesco would be a good choice as well.

Companies in Krakow pay schools 100-150 PLN per hour. Self-amployed teachers charge more or less 120 PLN per hour


Well if you go on gumtree there are plenty of native speakers willing to work for 40 or less (in Krakow). Of course, feel free to negotiate for more than 45/45 but you have to know how to sell yourself and explain why you are offering a superior product to others who are prepared to work for 40 or even less. Wink
http://www.gumtree.pl/cp-jezyki/krakow/english-conversation-lessons-native-speaker-562825832- 40PLN per 60 minutes
http://www.gumtree.pl/cp-jezyki/krakow/english-native-speaker-call-if-you-need-me-562812051 also 40PLN per 60 minutes
http://www.gumtree.pl/cp-jezyki/krakow/english-with-a-native-speaker-562350592 35PLN per 50 minutes

http://www.gumtree.pl/cp-jezyki/krakow/prywatne-konwersacje-z-native-speakerem-z-usa-562597138 50PLN per 60 minutes
http://www.gumtree.pl/cp-jezyki/krakow/1-to-1-tuition-the-most-effective-way-to-improve-your-english-418205092 55PLN per 60 minutes

Unfortunately I can only see the market becoming more and more saturated..
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 965
Location: Itabashi, Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are loads of 'lingerers' in Krakow - travelers who turn up with no qualifications and decide they want to stay... so they become 'native speakers.'

But a native speaker is different than a teacher and they are paid differently. I think 1zl/1 min net is quite doable, even in Krakow. Only if you are a teacher who has experience and knows the market a bit.
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Janek



Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Krakow, Poland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Louisdf"]Well if you go on gumtree there are plenty of native speakers willing to work for 40 or less (in Krakow). Of course, feel free to negotiate for more than 45/45 but you have to know how to sell yourself and explain why you are offering a superior product to others who are prepared to work for 40 or even less. Wink

Unfortunately I can only see the market becoming more and more saturated..[/quote]

So you compare conversation ads on gumtree with in-company business English classes?

Wysoka jakość ma swoją cenę.
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Tommo84



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Upper Silesia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Janek that 45/45 should be the benchmark price for an in-company Business English lesson. Is it worth going below that for someone looking to gain experience? Arguably yes - when you've worked for less than 45/45 and felt you were being underpaid it puts you in a much stronger negotiating position the next time someone offers you less.

If it's a one-to-one conversation lesson cash-in-hand, no planning involved and no real long-term commitment, I wouldn't feel comfortable charging more than 50/60. The problem with advertising yourself at that price is that you get schools ringing you up, interviewing you for in-company work and then acting surprised when you say 60/60 minimum. You have to hold your ground. Like I said, I think that's much easier when you've had experience of being underpaid.

Admittedly I'm in Katowice where there aren't nearly as many native speakers (only a fraction of whom have got good qualifications and experience). I'd hate to be an English teacher in Kraków.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 965
Location: Itabashi, Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommo84 wrote:
I agree with Janek that 45/45 should be the benchmark price for an in-company Business English lesson. Is it worth going below that for someone looking to gain experience? Arguably yes - when you've worked for less than 45/45 and felt you were being underpaid it puts you in a much stronger negotiating position the next time someone offers you less.

If it's a one-to-one conversation lesson cash-in-hand, no planning involved and no real long-term commitment, I wouldn't feel comfortable charging more than 50/60. The problem with advertising yourself at that price is that you get schools ringing you up, interviewing you for in-company work and then acting surprised when you say 60/60 minimum. You have to hold your ground. Like I said, I think that's much easier when you've had experience of being underpaid.

Admittedly I'm in Katowice where there aren't nearly as many native speakers (only a fraction of whom have got good qualifications and experience). I'd hate to be an English teacher in Kraków.
Once you've had clients which paid 80zl/60 min. (achievable in Warsaw) it makes 50/60 sound pretty unattractive. I'd feel comfortable taking whatever I can get, especially from a business 1-1. If they don't like my price they can hire some dude from Fresno on a gap-year working holiday at 35/hr. We'll see how that works out.

Warsaw is a different animal work-wise. There are many more well-paying gigs here than other Polish cities.

If I could find a well-paying job in Krakow I'd be there in a heartbeat. Much nicer place to live.
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Tommo84



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Upper Silesia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Once you've had clients which paid 80zl/60 min. (achievable in Warsaw) it makes 50/60 sound pretty unattractive. I'd feel comfortable taking whatever I can get, especially from a business 1-1. If they don't like my price they can hire some dude from Fresno on a gap-year working holiday at 35/hr. We'll see how that works out.


I think 50/60 is a fair price for the student cash-in-hand. I like to keep it on the low side because it means I can afford to be more relaxed in terms of planning etc. The higher the price, the higher students' expectations, the more stressful it is for me. Cash-in-hand is just pocket money at the end of the day and I find it stressful enough focussing on my actual job, which is planning and teaching in-company lessons through the big language schools. When I teach a student for cash-in-hand I want to be able to chill out a bit, maybe have a beer, not think about how much I'm charging them and are they getting value for money. I guess you have to take a different approach when you're in Warsaw.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 886
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many variables in this discussion.

City, group or individual, business or general, conversation or structured....

Like Tom, I enjoy the more laid-back approach with some students but those who actually need a structured curriculum require the prep and materials setup. It seems only fair that they pair higher because of the necessary added prep.

When I teach writing I charge 50% additional for the required checking and critique necessary. One hour means 1.5 charge, etc.

Also interesting how sometimes our personal goals and objectives affect our approach to pricing. Will you charge all the client will pay? Do you cut a deal for your less affluent students? As you try to balance your hours, do you accept a lower rate for mid-day students versus the ones who insist on evening schedules?
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Tommo84



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Upper Silesia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So many variables in this discussion.


And the big risk is that we get away from the main point which is that, as Janek rightly said, 45/45 should be the minimum rate for an in-company business English lesson.

Regarding conversation lessons which require little-to-no planning, 50 PLN is just a nice round number isn't it. I think a good thing to do is to have one-to-one lessons yourself in another foreign language (not Polish) with a proper teacher, pay the going rate and see what it feels like from the students' perspective. I pay 40/60 for my German lessons once a week and feel I'm getting really good value for money.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 965
Location: Itabashi, Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Conversation Reply with quote

Tommo84 wrote:
Regarding conversation lessons which require little-to-no planning, 50 PLN is just a nice round number isn't it. I think a good thing to do is to have one-to-one lessons yourself in another foreign language (not Polish) with a proper teacher, pay the going rate and see what it feels like from the students' perspective. I pay 40/60 for my German lessons once a week and feel I'm getting really good value for money.


I've never really taught discounted conversation lessons. I don't see the benefit of paying to chat with someone for an hour, and I don't expect my students to either. If someone really wants to chat, they can go to the local expat bar and strike up a conversation in English, or join an English speaking social group, like Couch Surfing or Tandem.

Now if a student wants lessons that are conversation/speaking based, that's fine, but there will be some vocabulary or skills focus. And homework is a must - if nothing else, it can contribute vocab/grammar/topics to the lessons.

If you teach the students something new every lesson, they'll improve, be more satisfied and continue the lessons and spread the word that you're good.

On the other hand, every student I had where the lessons got too chatty and unfocused (their choice) eventually petered out once we ran out of topics to talk about.

My 2 cents.
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Tommo84



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Upper Silesia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now if a student wants lessons that are conversation/speaking based, that's fine, but there will be some vocabulary or skills focus. And homework is a must - if nothing else, it can contribute vocab/grammar/topics to the lessons.

If you teach the students something new every lesson, they'll improve, be more satisfied and continue the lessons and spread the word that you're good.


I've done the CELTA and taught full-time for four years in a school where you needed to have CELTA and you had formal observations twice a year, very constructive feedback etc. so I know what you're talking about and I probably do apply this (more-or-less) in a formal environment, in-company etc., the kind of work Janek mentioned where companies pay schools 100-150 PLN/hr.

As you said yourself, there's a difference between a "native speaker" and a "teacher". When someone pays 50 PLN cash what they get from me is probably more "native speaker". That doesn't mean I don't make a lot of notes on new vocab that comes up, note down all their mistakes (usually pronunciation and grammar) and go through it with them afterwards. I might not have done much planning (I have more important lessons to think about) but I think you can still give someone good value from un-planned conversation if you're an experienced teacher who knows the language well.

Regarding vocab and vocab revision, I always tell my students (I should say the ones who are paying 50 PLN) that if they want to learn vocab in a highly structured way they're far better off with a non-native speaker, someone who has a real passion for dictionaries. What I tend to focus on more is making sure the engine is in good working order, that is that they're not making a lot of grammatical mistakes, that they're able to have a fluent conversation.

More important than learning new words is developing the skills to deal with the words you don't know, guessing the meaning from the context, and paraphrasing if you can't remember what the word is.

Students know that if they do end up translating a difficult word from L1 then I'll be able to tell them if they've done so appropriately in the context. That's where I can help them, not by "teaching" them new words.

Upper Int/Advanced students need to take responsibility for their own vocab learning and vocab revision. They can't expect to be spoonfed vocab by a teacher.

Quote:
On the other hand, every student I had where the lessons got too chatty and unfocused (their choice) eventually petered out once we ran out of topics to talk about.


This happens to me quite a lot, usually because the student just doesn't have a lot to talk about. Natural selection. My favourite students are the ones who've got something about them. If we run out of topics to talk about then that's their problem because I'm not exactly desperate for work. There aren't that many expat bars when I am and cash-in-hand lessons isn't a huge priority.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 886
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't go quite that laissez-faire with them.

It takes me about 20-30 minutes each Sunday to put together a varied list of articles from WSJ, BBC, Reuters, Washington Post and such. I send each student 3-4 articles and suggest they pick one that motivates them. A few of my students are working with e-books which gives them a very focused (over-focused I fear) vocabulary (usually business) but they appear to engage with it so it seems to work.

We've done topics on everything from selecting a firearm to Nietzsche, comedy to tragedy, education to retirement planning, it's a big world out there.
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