View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
desert_traveller
Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 335
|
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:23 am Post subject: endemic cheating and copying |
|
|
One thing i never fully understood. Saudi male students can spend five times more time and energy finding ways to get the right answers, not only in a test but also in a regular, not assessed lesson activity, by copying and cheating than it would take them to actually learn something and produce a few answers. Many will not even attempt to produce anything before they start copying. Also, their obsession with perfection. Achieving the facade of perfection through cheating, copying or by any other means no matter what it takes, as opposed to actually learning something. This makes the whole idea of education pretty much futile and irrelevant. OK, all right, no problem. But - why? What is the underlying reason? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jaffa
Joined: 25 Oct 2012 Posts: 403
|
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Because they are living a lie. The entire nation is based on this pretence. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
abayababy
Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 109
|
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sigh. Sad, but probably true. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA
|
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is not just Saudi... it is the Gulf. And so many of them seriously don't seem to understand that it is wrong. Presumably it develops from the educational system that they come from... is it because their previous 12 years was based on memorizing some other person's production on any subject? A societal tendency to suppress any questioning of what they are told by those in authority... parent, teacher, religion...
VS |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OzMak
Joined: 14 Dec 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Australia
|
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Would it be safe to highlight that it extends well beyond the Gulf? Teaching in Egypt doesn't sound any different than to what you have complained about in your post fellow desert traveller. Mind you I cannot comment on the top tier foreign schools located here, only the private owned schools. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA
|
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
It would be generally the same educational system. The Gulf originally brought in Egyptians to set up their schools. If you get to a place like AUC, there are standards and students can and will be failed for cheating or blatant plagiarism, but it is still hard work controlling it.
VS |
|
Back to top |
|
|
teechagimme
Joined: 29 Dec 2010 Posts: 56 Location: S. Korea
|
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's not just the males, the women in the pyp programs here are pr ofessional cheaters. Our admin create different versions of the test but when I walk around the room invigilating, I see that the students have quickly figured out that page 2 of test A is also page 4 of test B and they are all on the same page "sharing" their answers.
I would also say that a good percentage of students should not be allowed to take the exams at the end of a given semester due to attendance issues. This week, students failed to show up for about half of my classes and when they caught a look at my attendance roster today, all hell broke lose because my very accurate record was just so very unfair. A couple of students even went to the dean's office about this. Clearly, they are accustomed to a culture where wheedling, whining, and complaining almost always result in them getting what they want. All of their problems and faults are blamed on the foreign teachers and if they complain enough, they can get another teacher...nevermind that they attend a university that is located in a horrible sandbox...make that a catbox...where no professional in his or her right mind ever wants to go! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
abayababy
Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 109
|
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
I work in a PYP program at a women's university, and my experience is not quite like that. My students this semester are respectful and generally attentive (though I admit that arriving in the middle of last semester this was not the case) and the midterms and finals are set up so that cheating is not easy or likely (not saying it doesn't sometimes happen). I guess I must not be in my right mind because I actually want to be here! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VOM
Joined: 02 Feb 2013 Posts: 12 Location: Planet Earth
|
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: It's not Cheating Sir...It's 'Helping!' |
|
|
I ask students and they divide into two opinions. The tiniest camp agree cheating is wrong and anti Islamic. The majority say cheating is simply 'helping' your friend.
To these boys, not only is it not wrong, it is even wrong NOT to help. 'Helping' is an obligation almost, a noble, manly, expression of loyalty and brotherhood.
Weird logic, right?
It is clear to me that Saudi students gave up (a long time ago) trying to be honest in a system which rewards correctness with less and 'helping' with so much more.
Success in the Kingdom is all about your willingness to put others ahead, nurturing and cementing those relations, about the amount of help 'credit' you invested in others in the past and the ability to turn a blind eye to endemic inequities and corruption.
This, not goodness and virtue, is what advances careers and in the end, pays out big.
Please bear in mind, that the Saudi soccer field is radically different turf, to that which Westerners are used to playing on. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world
|
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
All the blame for this cheating-copying-use of Google translate problem should not be placed on the students---some of who don't even have a desire to learn English. This is a result of an archaic, flawed educational system---one that values high marks from assignments and exams instead of actual learning and thinking for oneself. Moreover, the repetitive drill-memorize-regurgitate method used in their high schools doesn't work in a language learning situation if the objective is to improve fluency. Neither does using Arabic to teach English, which some PYP Arabic-speaking teachers are guilty of. Are these students lazy, unethical cheats or ignorant? No, they're the product of a culture that skirts accountability and a system that doesn't allow them to gain the self confidence needed to acquire and speak a foreign langage. What a way to kill their motivation (and the teacher's as well). And this extends to some PY programs in which 1) the system, curriculum, and test design make it easy for students to cheat or plagiarize, and 2) those administering the program are old-school and have no qualms about 'enhancing' a student's final grade so that he/she can pass.
Fortunately, I don't have a cheating issue with my girls. But they're science track students---all of their subject courses are also taught in English, so they're serious learners. They're very much aware of my challenges speaking Arabic and how I don't always have someone helping me but am still able to communicate with others. As a teacher, it's important that I help boost their confidence---they get a lot of encouragement from me and from each other. Just yesterday, my students applauded after they successfully worked together through a tricky grammar exercise. The other day, a student rewarded a classmate with a loud "Bravo!" after she self-corrected.
Anyway, some Saudis heading to universities in North America, Europe, OZ, etc., for their studies may be in for a rude awakening. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343
|
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You will not stop it but there are ways of controlling it. The standard technique is to have different "versions" of the same exam, where the numbering and order of the questions is different. Neighbouring students have different versions.
There vare often attempts to use the new technology - mobile phones, iPads etc.
It comes with the territory - you just have to deal with it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
desert_traveller
Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 335
|
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nomad soul wrote: |
Anyway, some Saudis heading to universities in North America, Europe, OZ, etc., for their studies may be in for a rude awakening. |
Unfortunately, this is not true. Those Saudis are milking cows for those Western universities, and they (the universities) will do everything they can to keep them (the Saudis) on the roll. Sad, but true. Money goes a long way everywhere. Half of those returning to Saudi Arabia with a fancy flashy degree from a Western university are just as useless as they were before they left. More than half. Almost all of them! Their petrodollars save them from that rude awakening! They pay, we play. Remember this every moment you are in a classroom in Saudi Arabia! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dear desert_traveller,
I think your statement - "Unfortunately, this is not true" - need to be modified by the addition of an "always," at least.
Having seen it from both sides - Saudis returning to the Kingdom with their degrees and Saudis attending college here in the States - I know that in both cases there have been exceptions. In fact, in the latter case (Saudis attending college here in the States), I can personally guarantee that they don't get a "free pass," at least here. I've flunked a number of them and there's never been any "blowback."
Regards,
John |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jaffa
Joined: 25 Oct 2012 Posts: 403
|
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
I used to know a German engineer out here who told me that he couldn't believe that Saudi universities spew out about 30,000 'qualified' engineering graduates each year.
"Our company has to employ a certain number of them," he told me. "They're not only useless at the job, they are often not even at work. I wouldn't trust them to change the wheel on a car." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lcanupp1964
Joined: 12 Dec 2009 Posts: 381
|
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
When people ask me what I do for a living, I say, �I help maintain the illusion�. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|