Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Not legal = no protection (that's now official)
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only)
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mike w



Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 970
Location: Beijing building site

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Not legal = no protection (that's now official) Reply with quote

Interesting article, whcih I suppose endorses what many people here say. Don't work illegally. The paragraph in bold print especially endorses this.

""
Foreigners working illegally lose some judicial protections
Updated: 2013-02-01 07:41
By Chen Xin ( China Daily)


As of Feb 1, courts will not protect the labor rights of foreigners working without a work permit, according to an interpretation of labor laws released by the Supreme People's Court, China's top court, on Thursday.

Foreigners without a work permit, even if they are under an employment contract, will not have their "labor relationship" with employers recognized by the court, according to the interpretation.

Foreigners who possess an expert certificate - a license issued by the government to some foreign workers with expertise in their fields - and obtain a work permit designed for foreign experts and are employed in China will benefit from the courts' recognition of their "labor relationship" with employers, read the judicial interpretation.

"Labor relationship" is a legal term, which covers labor rights including social insurance and compensation for work injuries.

As China has deepened its opening-up, an increasing number of foreigners are working in China, and labor disputes involving foreign workers are also on the rise, according to the top court.

Foreigners who do not obtain a work permit are not qualified laborers so they cannot establish labor relations with employers, according to the top court.

Jiang Ying, a labor law professor at the China Institute of Industrial Relations, said labor laws have stated that for a foreigner to work legally in China, they must have a work permit, and the top court's interpretation supports a message of protecting foreigners' legitimate rights when labor disputes occur.

A work visa is a premise to apply for a work permit, according to Chinese laws.

"As China develops, many foreigners come to work without undertaking legal procedures," she said, "That will greatly affect China's job market."

Jiang said her study found many foreigners working in language training institutions do not have a work permit.

"The interpretation would make it harder for foreigners working without a permit to seek protection of their rights because the court will not recognize their labor relationship with employers," she said, "So it would, to some extent, hamper the enthusiasm of foreigners who want to seek illegal employment in China."

However, the interpretation has erased a clause that was in the draft of the interpretation that had been available for public comment. Foreigners who have worked for an employer can get their pay according to their contract, the erased clause read.

A labor rights lawyer, who gave his name as Wang, said the omission of the clause does not mean that foreigners will have less chance of winning a labor dispute.

Companies have to pay the wages if the foreigners have worked for them, regardless of whether they have a work permit or not, as long as they have signed a labor contract, he said.

"But foreigners without a work permit do not have the protection of the 'labor relationship' with the employer in the courts. That means the court may not recognize their labor rights including social insurance, healthcare, compensation for work injury and double pay for overtime."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2459
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post.
Call me a cynic but I still fully expect a further thread entitled:
'Hey is it OK to work on a Tourist Visa?'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike w



Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 970
Location: Beijing building site

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Call me a cynic but I still fully expect a further thread entitled:
'Hey is it OK to work on a Tourist Visa?'


No, that's called 'being realistic'. Laughing Laughing

I often find it amusing that the people who complain about illegal immigrants working in their own country, seem to be the ones who ask about how to work illegally in China.

Confused Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2459
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is called:
'Situational Morality'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody ought to break laws/regulations in or out of our homelands. The legal system in our homelands provides us with a degree of protection that many of us know well about, and so I am wondering about China.

Quote:
Foreigners who possess an expert certificate - a license issued by the government to some foreign workers with expertise in their fields
Would this "government" be the SAFEA office? If so, how does this office assist FTs and protect them from unscrupulous or illegal employers? The OP has said somewhere on the forums that his experiences go as far as Qing or is it Mao Dynasty Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If so, how does this office assist FTs and protect them from unscrupulous or illegal employers?


Labor board.




Quote:
The OP has said somewhere on the forums that his experiences go as far as Qing or is it Mao Dynasty Confused


What do u imply with this posting?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NoBillyNO wrote:
Quote:
The OP has said somewhere on the forums that his experiences go as far as Qing or is it Mao Dynasty Confused


What do u imply with this posting?
He has plenty of knowledge about the country.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike w



Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 970
Location: Beijing building site

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
The OP has said somewhere on the forums that his experiences go as far as Qing or is it Mao Dynasty Confused


What do u imply with this posting?


I'm confused too. I didn't realise I was that old Laughing

Explain further please?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NoBillyNO wrote:
Quote:
If so, how does this office assist FTs and protect them from unscrupulous or illegal employers?


Labor board.
Does the "Labor board" issue expert certificates? Sorry but the question is aimed at SAFEA. But since the "Labor board" has been mentioned, i'd like to know experiences of FTs that've been helped there. It'd be interesting to see the ratio of how many FTs have been helped and how many have been turned away or made to leave the country. Yes, I hear you. It's very difficult or perhaps imposible to get such stats. Many stats appear to be insupportable in the country.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike w wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
The OP has said somewhere on the forums that his experiences go as far as Qing or is it Mao Dynasty Confused


What do u imply with this posting?


I'm confused too. I didn't realise I was that old Laughing

Explain further please?
And i thought i explained it 4 minutes prior to this post. No more to add?

Look I do not mean to spat at anyone but to put forth reasons for believing in the institutions. If one is really experienced, then let's share the knowledge, not just some party paper reporting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike w



Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 970
Location: Beijing building site

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article is about foreigners working illegally. That is something I have no personal experience of - I have never worked in China illegally.

I know people who have, and to be honest, the way they were treated when the were 'found out' differed greatly. I know people who have still been in country more than one year after their visa expired - again the way they were treated by the PSB was very different.

Experiences can be interesting, but only that. As I am sure you will know, the rules, laws, and regulations are pretty clear. The huge variance comes in the way they are applied. Not just from province to province, but city to city, even school to school. It is well documented that some schools make their own rules up and then try to pass them of as Chinese Law.

Even the documents required for getting your residential certificate can vary from one police station to the next.

The biggest lesson for anyone, is that nothing in this country is applied evenly, rules can change by the hour, and nothing is constant. One persons experiences may possibly never be experienced by anyone else.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does the "Labor board" issue expert certificates? Sorry but the question is aimed at SAFEA.


If the question is aimed at SAFEA, then perhaps you should ask SAFEA.

wonderingjoesmith Quote:
Quote:
Foreigners who possess an expert certificate - a license issued by the government to some foreign workers with expertise in their fields
Would this "government" be the SAFEA office? If so, how does this office assist FTs and protect them from unscrupulous or illegal employers?

As I understand it they are responsible in "some places" (as Mike has mentioned) but mainly they are for licensing and the Labor board is for regulation. Other places they serve as recruitment.

got another one for you to explain:

Quote:
Look I do not mean to spat at anyone but to put forth reasons for believing in the institutions. If one is really experienced, then let's share the knowledge, not just some party paper reporting.


What is party paper reporting. Are you referring to the Commie Party?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article is in the Communist China Daily to tell all foreigners that the local institutions are to be trusted and that laws rule in China.

OP has been here for a long time and he could tell how the institutions support hard working and honest FTs in the country.

I hope the posters on this thread can grasp the inquiry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I hope the posters on this thread can grasp the inquiry


What inquiry?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike w



Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 970
Location: Beijing building site

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The article is in the Communist China Daily to tell all foreigners that the local institutions are to be trusted and that laws rule in China.


Think you should read the article again. I thought it was abut foreigners working illegally.

Or perhaps you just have something against those of us who have been here a long time without encountering any of the really bad employers?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only) All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC