Job Discussion Forums

[tttompatz]

I know who my Grammar is and don't have to deal with her until I get home from class. I hope I never have to deal with her in my classroom; she is getting too old and hard of hearing.

My Lexis is a nice silver color, has lots of luxury features and is pretty fuel efficient.

I know all about phonology... I've had a cell phone for years and know all about all kinds of older phones as well so I guess you can call me a phone-ologist.

.

[Sashadroogie]

But did you learn all about those things on an online course, eh?

[tttompatz]

[Xie Lin]

[fluffyhamster]

I must say that I find the simplistic~slightly pernicious dichotomy that often gets posed on these forums, between on the one hand the garrulous barely-qualified (asian backpacker-)lecturer, and the tight-lipped but supposedly ultra-knowledgeable and efficient (western-based or -leaning) "facilitator" on the other, is a little laughable if not tiring. The issue that always gets glossed over is that WHAT the teacher chooses to say is key, and may in fact have implications for the HOW and indeed the HOW MUCH. (Students do not learn to speak from simply making noise with their vocal apparatus, contrary to what some might think or imply). But what we are apparently supposed to believe and almost without question is that students become at least good conversationalists provided teachers simply follow "approved" methods (methods which aren't exactly conversation-focussed). And yes, conversation is a good basis, and can be quite wide i.e. not just all phatic lightweight hello and goodbye stuff.

[Denim-Maniac]

My Asian insight ... based purely on my own experience of course.

In a Chinese classroom (and I believe many other Asian classrooms) students are taught in very teacher centred ways that include lots of repetition and lots of memorisation. They also tend to be taught L2 with a heck of a lot of L1. This includes lots of lengthy and complicated grammar structures where the focus is on presentation and controlled practice of said structures. Very little emphasis may be given on real production of language.

As a result many of these students really dont like a more student centred class or student centered activities. For them learning is often just: listen to the teacher and try to remember. Pair work and group work has a perceived lack of value, and communication with the native speaker has an inflated sense of worth. They also believe that any grammatical structure is better learned with a teacher who can give lengthy explanations in L1, that they can take home and remember.

So when a new (or an experienced) teacher tries to set up a class with pairwork, its often met with resistance. If a teacher asks a class to identify a structure highlighted from a text or tape recording, they are often met with blank faces and students that are saying 'you're the teacher, you tell us what it is'. When your mandate is to keep the fee paying students happy, or to engage students as much as possible ... it takes a brave soul to keep solidering on and try to teach the students how you teach.

Many teachers (probably quite rightly) decide, 'Well, this class really dont like pair work and is resistant to it. They like to be asked a question directly from the teacher and to respond to the teacher, so Ill do more of what they respond to'. And maybe thats the right thing to do ... win the battle and lose the war etc.

Of course, this is all pretty standard stuff that you European teachers know. Im guessing its quite evident in classes you teach that have the odd Asian student. They want to translate everything, treat their electronic dictionary as their best friend and often prefer talking to the teacher than another student. But you can train them to be different right? It takes a little time and patience, but they will slowly learn to follow the other students and can adapt to the methodology used in your classroom.

And the good news is the same is true of us teachers with mainly Asian experience, we can adapt to work as successfully in your classrooms as the students that study in them. We just need the same love and patience
(and I personally need a regular supply of tea and chocolate biscuits to really get the best of me)

[Xie Lin]

Nice post, DM! I wish you an endless supply of hot tea and delicious chocolate biscuits.

.

[fluffyhamster]

My experiences in a private language school in China apparently differ from yours, DM (and I assume it is that setting you're talking about, and not some nebulous team-teaching in Chinese public schools). The students came precisely for the "communicative language teaching", and thus wouldn't've endured much grammar lecturing (in fact, the thing that one often reads on these forums is that Asian students specifically request that they not be taught grammar, at least not explicit stuff. They are often familiar enough with the formal labels and basic examples).

The main issue rather (that you mention briefly in passing) is that certainly the smaller the class size, the more the students might prefer to converse with the teacher than be put into pairs or small groups to do what to them must often seem little more than talk amongst themselves. This isn't too unreasonable an opinion when you really think about it, and it isn't confined to Asian students.

Regarding highlighting of structures and the like, Sasha posted a couple of Harmer-derived model clips a while ago, one of which involved a teacher telling a Christmas anecdote and then <drum roll> pointing out that such and such an example used such and such a structure. Although it was only a clip and presumably not quite the whole lesson or point of the lesson, I'd imagine that any number of people's responses could well be 'And...?', 'Is that it?', or 'So what?'. (My personal reaction might've been a bit more positive if the teacher hadn't seemed so self-satisfied with his IMHO somewhat scanty fare. Perhaps the function should've been obvious from the mere telling, and the students able to extrapolate and generate a whole universe of varied examples from just the few on offer). Meaning that it isn't just Asian students who might be left scratching their heads at select methods and activities.

IME it is perfectly possible to use standard CLT methods and activities in Asia, and to go beyond them to more natural methods. It is also possible to use some aspects of grammar-translation, teacher-led discussion etc with profit. Ultimately if one is meeting puzzlement and resistance, changing the method (from what one believes in or rather has been led to believe or trust in) is an obvious answer surely? You adapt to the environment or it may remain inhospitable. And here's a bonus tip for complete newbies: the students who know the most will have learnt it outside private language schools, and long before meeting you for mere conversation practice (which is all that many schools and wannabe teachers can ultimately offer) or anything else you might come up with. You'd do well to study their methods, which may be quite "boring", yet are honest-to-goodness learning proper.

[Denim-Maniac]

[Sashadroogie]

I'm afraid I have not seen too many Chinese students who have benefited from these 'Asian' methods. Few if any could speak, and those that could utter a few words were incomprehensible. I don't know what tuition they received, from local or foreign teachers, but I can say that by the time the students get to Europe, they have not learnt much at all - even theoretical knowledge of grammar was scanty, unlike, say, Japanese students.

Delivering what the Chinese student wants seems to be in opposition to what they need. At least, that is the view from afar...

[Denim-Maniac]

[Sashadroogie]

Learner expectations are very important, it is true. And sometimes they run directly counter to what the teacher knows to be a better way of managing a classroom. However, this is true in all classrooms around the world from what I can see. Gradual learner-training is the key to achieving some sort of workable compromise. Most learners will accept many novelties and strange new techniques if the how and the why is made clear to them. Not all of them, but most, at least in my experience.

The only difference, which is specifically Chinese, is that the attempt to reach a compromise seems to lead to all manner of practices which would not just be unacceptable in other, European contexts, but seem to be also totally ineffective in Chinese contexts, e.g. heavy reliance on translators during classroom time.

[Denim-Maniac]

[fluffyhamster]

If you've had positive experiences and moderate successes then why not actually mention them (however briefly) rather than concentrating on the supposed problems of the "typical Chinese learner", DM? And I'm not the only one to have read your posts the "wrong" way - Sasha for example is finding your words playing somewhat into his hands, and is not only implying if not telling you outright that TEFLers (and their students) hailing from Asia need a bit of a rocket back out of Europe, but also that the pedagogical payload he could personally deliver in China would work wonders. And you know what, I'd agree with him, in the sense as I say that I, you, he, thee, anyone really, can get standard CLT to work fine in China. (All it needs is a Mr Miyagi-like clap and rub of the hands and then a firm voice to tell them "Today we're going to do this". If some students start whining about the lightweight approach or whatever, you show them the school brochure packed with photos of crazed "Find someone who..." students milling like Paras, and direct them to the refunds desk if necessary and with hopefully the full blessing of your boss). Whether or not standard CLT is really quite the best thing for them or any student is another matter though, as I have argued quite a few times already.

Electronic dictionaries are a tool, and better to have one (and not always need it) than need yet not have one readily to hand. And being reasonably familiar with them myself, I could show students e.g. how to access and tailor the examples search function (which they were often unaware of), so that they could turn their dictionaries into limited corpora for establishing collocations or colligation or whatever. "Find someone who...is using an electronic dictionary at this very moment. First person to find half a dozen wins!".

[fluffyhamster]