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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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 Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| valleyninja wrote: |
Does anyone know about the MSc in Applied Linguistics and MSc in TESOL from Aston, and why they are MSc's rather than MA's?
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In order to differentiate between the people who did Aston's on-campus degree (who receive an MA) and the people who did Aston's distance degree (who receive an M.Sc) without letting on to employers outside of the university that that's what they are doing, unless the employer actually bothers to look it up (many universities like to employ graduates of their own programs, and some will want to be able to discern the on-campus {in-group} with off-campus {out-group}).
Slightly related question: Can anybody tell me why they still allow Oxford and Cambridge to give people a "masters" for having done nothing at all after completing their undergrad? By far most employers have no idea that the person with a B.A from Cambridge as well as an M.A. from Cambridge doesn't actually have a graduate degree. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_(Oxbridge_and_Dublin)]Wikipedia link[/url] |
St. Andrews also does this I believe. One of my friends had an 'MA' from St. Andrews (actually a BA anywhere else) and was able to land a cushy position because of it.
On a related note, I've just been offered a position on an MA Applied Linguistics with TESOL course in the U.K., I'm really nervous about it as I barely meet the minimum requirements but I know it's something I'd like to do. The question is just 'when'. |
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mmcmorrow
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 143
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I know, Scottish universities have always awarded MAs for their four-year degree programmes.
I think Oxbridge graduates can still apply for an MA three years after graduation. Apart from being a better-looking certificate (than the BA), the MA version also doesn't include the class of the degree, which might be an attraction for graduates with 2.2 or 3rd class honours, as it essentially 'wipes the slate clean'. I think the accepted practice is to list the MA (if at all) as MA (Oxon) for Oxford or MA (Cantab) for Cambridge - some will know what this means; most won't (especially outside the UK).
If people want to represent these certificates as something they are not, then that's an ethical issue for them, I suppose. It's a slippery slope though - soon they might find themselves going by a noble title they bought off the internet and insisting on being addressed as 'Your Lordship').
Martin McMorrow (AKA Viscount Varley of Camberwick Green) |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| mmcmorrow wrote: |
If people want to represent these certificates as something they are not, then that's an ethical issue for them, I suppose. |
It shouldn't be an option. It isn't elsewhere.
An example of the opposite case: If you do a TESL Certificate from an Ontario (Canada) university, you do the same level of work as a masters in language teaching. You cannot get access to jobs that require an MA almost all of the time (there are some employers in the Middle East who seem to be aware of this kind of certificate). It is no easier than a masters in language teaching from Australia etc (I know this because I did a masters degree in TESOL from a university in Australia as well as an Ontario university TESL certificate).
And yet people can, and do manage to get positions that require a masters degree saying that they have an M.A. from Cambridge. There may be historical reasons for it (the Trivium and the Quadrivium, but I'm not sure how that's relevant at all to the current Cambridge degree names other than that people who graduated and then use the M.A. to claim that they have a graduate degree say that it is. One guy I used to know with an M.A. from Cambridge kept saying "Well, an M.A. is a graduate degree. And I have an M.A. So yeah, I have a graduate degree" whenever people asked him about his education, which was pretty frequent since he was obviously trying to deceive Japanese employers who had heard of Cambridge and were trying to figure out what his masters degree was actually in. And he used the same wording each and every time, and with the same inflection. It was pretty obviously practised.)
The actual name of the qualification is the single biggest marketing device a qualification has, especially in an international work areas due to people coming from all over the English speaking world. Marketing qualifications (like, 'selling people on the program value') is what universities do.
That's why fake degrees etc are such a big deal.
And the problem is that Cambridge University is a well-known, well-respected university with excellent programs that is handing out what are obviously going to be used as fake degrees, and saying it's not their fault, their real graduate degrees have another name. Like if a private high school named it's high school diploma "Bachelor of Arts" instead of whatever it's called in the area (ex: it's called an Ontario Secondary School Diploma where I'm from), and then just sort of said "Meh, whatever", when told, "Your graduates are very often using their high school diploma to get a work visa in another country because what's required for this work visa is an undergraduate degree, and you called your high school diploma the same name that more than half of all undergraduate degrees in the English speaking world are called. They are then acting like jackasses and now the country is thinking of putting a stop to allowing people from our country go there at all."
Here's a telegraph article. Politicians wanted to outlaw these fakers.
Last edited by GambateBingBangBOOM on Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The 4 ancient univesrities in Scotland - St Andrews, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen have always offered an MA as a first degree. 4 year course. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| The 4 ancient univesrities in Scotland - St Andrews, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen have always offered an MA as a first degree. 4 year course. |
I think that should change, but really, it isn't quite the same thing. They are handing out something called an MA as their first degree. So people have one qualification.
Cambridge, on the other hand, is handing out an ADDITIONAL qualification for having done nothing at all. So people show up with two papers for having done ONE degree.
In the case of the ancient universities of Scotland, at least potential employers may (really 'should') ask the potential employee, 'So, how is it you have a masters degree but no bachelor degree?' and then would get the explanation. Not really a big deal (unless the applicant were required to have a graduate degree for the position and was trying to pull a fast one, which is why I think the name should be changed in modern society where working abroad is common. It wouldn't be possible to even try to pull a fast one if it was just named along the lines of pretty much everywhere else in the English speaking world, certainly in the inner circle English speaking world). I guess it's possible that someone could do their initial undergrad MA from one of those Scottish universities and just barely pass. And then do another undergrad from a university that offers a BA as an initial degree (like most universities). And THEN try to pass off the Scottish qualification as a graduate degree. But even in that (probably extremely rare, if it has occurred at all) case work for two different degrees have been done (and it would take an awful lot longer to do it that way than to just do an undegrad and then a graduate degree, anyway).
Why would an employer looking at a Cambridge graduate with a "Bachelor of Arts" parchment, and a "Master of Arts" parchment ask them, "So, I see you have a 'Bachelor of Arts' and a 'Master of Arts'. Is that one degree or two?" if they haven't heard of Cambridge handing out these papers for having done nothing at all (and if they had, then they would know just by the name M.A. that it isn't a graduate degree, because real graduate degrees from Cambridge are called something else - M.Phil or M.Letters- and so still likely wouldn't ask. So asking would just be a Gotcha! moment). And it isn't like Cambridge advertises that this is what they do, or even makes it very prominent on their website. But it's enough that people who are looking to get the M.A. know what to do.
Oxford apparently now makes people give back the 'Bachelor' qualification before they'll send out the 'master' qualification (maybe to emphasize that there's only one degree). |
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