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It seems ALL trainingcenters ask you to come on tourist visa
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mcloo7



Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 434
Location: Hangzhou

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: It seems ALL trainingcenters ask you to come on tourist visa Reply with quote

Everybody says not to come over with anything other than a Z visa, but it seems like no training center gets Z visas for teachers before they arrive, but ask them to come on tourist or business visas that will be converted later. This includes the large chain schools that one would think would have to do things aboveboard. My question is, how are teachers here, who are strict about receiving a Z visa before they arrive, working at training schools? Because it seems like people on here certainly do work for training schools yet they also tell you to never compromise on the visa.
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Banner41



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When they want you to come over like this it is 0 liability for them. They meet you, don't like you BAM, you just spent a lot of money that you will not get back. When schools bring you over on proper paperwork, it shows an investment in time and money that makes it less likely for you to get an immediate dismissal with no rights on your side. People encourage proper paperwork because for one, it's the legal way to do it, two, it is usually out of your pocket that you have to do visa runs on, and three, IT PROTECTS YOU in any contract disputes. No proper paperwork, no legal standing at all. It should tell you a lot about an employer who asks you do do otherwise.
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mcloo7



Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 434
Location: Hangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but the point I'm making is it seems like all training centers ask you to do this. I'm talking about the large chain ones, that are supposedly reputable, some of which are owned by foreigners. It seems like the only way to get a z visa before coming is if you work at a uni. Does anybody work at a training center that got them the z visa before they came to China?
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vikeologist



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 600

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This just isn't true.

Let's be clear. You get a Z visa before you arrive. Then, within the first month, that's converted to a residence permit.

The only way of changing one type of visa to another is to go to Hong Kong (or somewhere else outside China), and though this kind of visa transfer certainly can be done, (we had a teacher do it last week, and no we did not and would not ask anyone to come to China on the wrong visa), I'm not certain that it can always be done.

It's a fact of life that some people will lie to you, and I'd suggest not working for them.

The dangers are that if you work for schools illegally (which is precisely what you'll be doing unless you go to Hong Kong to switch visas straight away), you are putting yourself at a big disadvantage.

If you find that lots of branches of a language mill are asking you to come to China illegally, tell us which school, and which braches / franchises.

I know I'm putting this in strong terms, but coming to China is a gamble, and a big commitment. I think that schools should play fair with us.
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Babala



Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My training centre gets our teachers the Z visa before coming to China. The only time we have sent a teacher to Hong Kong was when they were in country and had the wrong visa (tourist, business) when we hired them.
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Nkengaola



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Wanzhou, Chongqing

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The training center I work for sent me the paperwork for the Z-visa before I ever set foot on an airplane, and did the same for every other foreign teacher here.

NEVER agree to work for a school that won't get the proper paperwork. NEVER EVER EVER.
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GreatApe



Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 582
Location: South of Heaven and East of Nowhere

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came over on an "L" visa in 2010 during the Spring Festival to work for a Training Center. I had three weeks vacation before I was scheduled to teach. Getting the "Z" visa took several months (longer than it should have taken). The center wasn't very good at arranging the "Z" visa. They were still learning the process themselves! However, they put me to work while the papers were filed and as soon as the New Year holiday was over. I did not have the "Z" visa in-hand, let alone the Resident Permit.

I would echo all who say: DO NOT DO THIS! I learned the hard way. Don't accept a job that cannot get you the proper "Z" visa before you leave your home country. It's just NOT worth it! They risk almost NOTHING in getting you to do this ... you risk A LOT!

--GA
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vikeologist



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 600

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are taking a bit of a risk, in that they're breaking the law employing teachers illegally.

the trouble is that if the Police investigate, it will be the foreign teachers who comes out of it worst, as they will probably be fined as well, (and probably be less able to shrug off the fine than the schools). You can't really claim ignorance as a defence. You have a tourist (or student) visa, yet you're working as a teacher.

I understand why teachers might go along with it. There are lots of countries where you can (and almost always do) work on a tourist visa / passport stamp, or at least enter the country on one to save time.

China is not one of those countries.

It's difficult when you hear conflicting pieces of information. Even on this site, there are posters who claim to be teachers, but whose 'advice' bears no relation to reality.

Schools will often be in a big hurry to get a new teacher in place. The longer it takes for you to arrive, the more money they're losing because they have customers and no teacher. Perhaps teachers are in a hurry to get here.

Just not worth it.
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Lancy Bloom



Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 126
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Money is the answer. In the world of the Internet promisses are easy for employers and employees. Some times teachers say they are coming school does the work and then teacher decides on going elsewhere.
PSB also likes to have a look at you and make sure you aren't missing any apendages.
They get to road test you before so they know if you are a teacher that their students will llike.
No cost to them for you coming here.
In todays world of wage slavery anything goes. You are looked on as a free apprentice. What are you going to do when they burn you? Bad mouth them on Dave's?. They will change their name anyway. So many empty buildings in China, so they can move the whole operation, if they want. Really not necessary when primarely dealing with backpackers with money for travelling and never teaching English again.
The most common expression said today. ITS LIKE THAT EVERYWHERE. English teaching is getting worse and worse around the world. Thirty years ago you could go someplace for a year and have enough money to pay your student loan off or put a downpayment down on a house. Now you need to send home for money from Mom and Pop to pay for you airline ticket home.
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vikeologist



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 600

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikeologist wrote:


Even on this site, there are posters who claim to be teachers, but whose 'advice' bears no relation to reality.


Lancy Bloom wrote:
In todays world of wage slavery anything goes.


Oh dear. Did you not realise that I was referring to you?

Without jumping on the anti-Lancy bandwagon, I don't think things are quite that bad. There are good language mills. There are bad ones. I don't know what the proportion is. My experiences of teaching In China have been good.

Here's the thing. It's not slavery. That's the kind of comment that drives some folks crazy.

Look, to single her out, Babala is indicative of the fact that there are conscientious and professional language schools out there. I don't know; maybe not enough. I've recently had to edit a positive review of a school, because I felt it was out of date.

I would agree with other posters though that asking you to work illegally should be a red flag.
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doogsville



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My former employers always get people the Z visa prior to them coming to China. Occasionally they will employ someone who is already here on an L or F visa, but they will then get them a Z visa, FEC and resident permit within the shortest time possible.

What incentive do schools have to do it right though, when there are so many people willing to come and work illegally? I did it in 2009. I took the first job I was offered, and nine days later arrived on the mainland. The promise of a Z visa was fake, and since I hadn't done my research, I ended up working illegally. Some of the teachers at that school had the proper paperwork, but the rest of us were on L or F visas. Until the supply of teachers willing to work illegally or failing to do their research dries up, it's difficult to see why schools, especially the unlicensed kind, would feel they should pay out to provide proper legal paperwork.

I'm not saying it's the teachers fault by any means, but that it's a bit of a vicious circle with no end in sight.
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Simon in Suzhou



Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 401
Location: GZ

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep looking, OP. I know you're frustrated, but not ALL training centers will ask you to come over without a Z-visa. There are plenty that are on the up and up. If you are qualified to teach in China (i.e. qualify for a Z-visa), you'll find a gig in short order.
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mr fred



Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon in Suzhou wrote:
Keep looking, OP. I know you're frustrated, but not ALL training centers will ask you to come over without a Z-visa. There are plenty that are on the up and up. If you are qualified to teach in China (i.e. qualify for a Z-visa), you'll find a gig in short order.


Next question has to be, what do you need to qualify for the working (Z?) visa?
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im in the UK now ... I leave on April 8th and will be flying with a Z visa in my passport. Thats the second time Ive left the UK with a Z visa, courtesy of my training centre employer.
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mcloo7



Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 434
Location: Hangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can some of you list the names of the training centers that got you the Z visa?

I'll start keeping track of who asks me to come over illegally. The one offer Ive had so far seemed to be asking me to do that. It was a large chain with many branches, but I dont want to say just yet, in case I was mistaken.

What I can say though is that it seems like all the jobs listed on all of the popular sites, ask you to do this. Alot of the adds say "help getting a working visa", but this seems to mean after you arrive.
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