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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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 Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Member states of the EU
(year of entry)
Austria (1995)
Belgium (1952)
Bulgaria (2007)
Cyprus (2004)
Czech Republic (2004)
Denmark (1973)
Estonia (2004)
Finland (1995)
France (1952)
Germany (1952)
Greece (1981)
Hungary (2004)
Ireland (1973)
Italy (1952)
Latvia (2004)
Lithuania (2004)
Luxembourg (1952)
Malta (2004)
Netherlands (1952)
Poland (2004)
Portugal (1986)
Romania (2007)
Slovakia (2004)
Slovenia (2004)
Spain (1986)
Sweden (1995)
United Kingdom (1973)
On the road to EU membership
Acceding country
Croatia
Candidate Countries
Iceland
Montenegro
Serbia
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
Turkey
Potential candidates
Albania
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Kosovo* |
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chica88
Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, yes and yes.
I know there are many members of the EU states.
Are there teachers out there who know the status of Illegal people working in Italy?
Is it as bad as the situation in Spain with people working in the black?
If anyone has first hand experience please feel free to share.
Its always interesting to know what the situation is in other countries from people living there. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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I think that the status of illegal people working in Italy is that they are illegal, and working there illegally.
They really should come on over to the Workers' Paradise. No need to worry about EU regulations here. |
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Teacher in Rome
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Well, you might find people working here illegally coming on to the forum and telling you about their experiences. You could also go and have a look at the expats in Italy forum, as someone has suggested.
I think the likeliest scenario to working illegally in Italy wouldn't be the language school route (who themselves would risk too many sanctions) but the private tutor route. But the problem (apart from the obvious ones of working illegally) are that you wouldn't be able to stay for very long. You get 90 days, then you'd have to leave Italy - or risk having your passport scrutinised when you finally left, then having all sorts of fines and penalties for overstaying. (Not least of which is an automatic bar to Schengen countries for 5 years.)
90 days doesn't give you long enough to set up contacts, get going with teaching, making enough to live on etc.
I'm frankly amazed why anyone would bother with all that hassle and risk for the opportunity to work unsocial and long hours for very little pay. What would be the point? If it was to stay in Italy for a while and enjoy the culture etc, why not just come over for your 90 days and enjoy a bit of a holiday?
If you want to work long-term in Italy, that's a different point. Others have already pointed out how you can think about getting a visa. I have to admit that I haven't been bothered to turn on my TV or read an Italian newspaper in ages. Same old same old, politics blah blah, no credible government blah blah, economy going down the pan blah blah. So I haven't heard of any new regulations to allow in US citizens to work. But I think it would be highly improbable for the Italians to change policy without a functioning government, and to go against EU policy just like that. |
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Xie Lin
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of applicable threads:
http://expatsinitaly.com/node/16140
http://expatsinitaly.com/node/11770
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Re: You have to have a job to get a visa...you have to have a visa to get a job
Pamela, you've just run headlong into the reality of the EU and its protectionist policies!The bottom line is you won't be hired by any school who can't find an EU person to do the same job: there are thousands of perfectly qualified Irish and UK teachers who need next to no paperwork. On top of that, there are now sufficient numbers of US/Italian dual citizens to make up the slack for schools who'd like an "American" accent.The paperwork is so complicated and time consuming that most schools can't be bothered (apart from having to prove they couldn't find an EU native to do the job, almost impossible).I really hate to dash your hopes but you won't be hired by any school unless you can finagle some other way, like getting a student visa that lets you work legally 20 hours a week
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Xie Lin
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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This is without a doubt the most exhaustive list I've come across.
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Well, let's run down the list of options -- including the weird and exotic. In no particular order:
1. You could live and work in Italy illegally, as clandestini do. (I would not recommend that.)
2. You mention you do not have Italian ancestry. However, if you are a citizen of any of the countries in the European Union, the European Economic Area, or of Switzerland, you can live and work in Italy legally. If you can be recognized as a citizen of any of those 30+ countries that'll work.
3. Citizens of Panama have some limited treaty rights to live and work in Italy.
4. If you are a citizen of Australia or of Canada you can apply for a 6 month "working holiday" visa. (You have to do so quickly if you're Australian since the age limit is 30.)
5. You can bounce back and forth a couple times between Italy and, for example, the U.K. as long as you don't work, staying within the 90 day Schengen Area limit and the 6 month U.K. limit. A total of up to 180 days in Italy/Schengen and up to 12 months in the U.K. should be quite safe if you hop back and forth precisely.
6. You can legally marry (or "civil unionize" -- as in the French PACS) a male citizen of any European Union or European Economic Area country (or of Switzerland) and live with him in Italy, with the ability to seek employment. (Men with EU/EEA "status" -- those foreigners with EC Long Term Residence Permits, for example -- would also qualify.) Sorry, I'm already taken.
7. You mention you're not a student currently, but that is an option if you wish to enroll in an Italian university. Note that student visa holders are allowed to work up to 20 hours per week in university/study-related work.
8. You mention you're not retiring any time soon. OK, but can you take a very long vacation? Can you stop working for 5 years, living off demonstrated savings and/or investment income? If so, you can apply for an Elective Residency visa, live in Italy for 5 years, then convert to an EC Long Term Residency Permit which then allows employment.
9. Are you super prominent in your field? A top business manager, a well-known entrepreneur, a famous artist or performer, a distinguished professor (*), a world class professional athlete, etc., with talents that are difficult or impossible to find among the 60+ million residents of Italy? If so, you may (if you're very lucky) be able to get a work visa.
10. Could you plausibly apply for asylum in Italy? Would returning to your home country put your life in danger, and do you have some plausible ties to Italy as a refuge?
11. Could you become a nun and work in the Vatican?
12. Could you join the diplomatic corps and get transferred to Italy?
13. Could you join the U.S. military and get stationed in Italy, or work for a defense contractor stationed at a U.S. base in Italy?
14. Would you be willing to live and work in Svalbard for several years (a not-well-traveled path to Norwegian citizenship)?
15. Would the Italian government (or any other EU or EEA government, or the Swiss government) have any reason to grant you citizenship for your service to their country? (That worked for Louis Freeh, as an example.)
(*) Austria is a better choice for professors, if possible. If you become a professor at an Austrian university, and you do not already have EU, EEA, or Swiss citizenship, then Austrian citizenship is yours for the asking.
That's all I've got.
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Excerpted from: http://www.expatsinitaly.com/node/16919
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chica88
Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Teacher in Rome wrote: |
Well, you might find people working here illegally coming on to the forum and telling you about their experiences. You could also go and have a look at the expats in Italy forum, as someone has suggested.
I think the likeliest scenario to working illegally in Italy wouldn't be the language school route (who themselves would risk too many sanctions) but the private tutor route. But the problem (apart from the obvious ones of working illegally) are that you wouldn't be able to stay for very long. You get 90 days, then you'd have to leave Italy - or risk having your passport scrutinised when you finally left, then having all sorts of fines and penalties for overstaying. (Not least of which is an automatic bar to Schengen countries for 5 years.)
90 days doesn't give you long enough to set up contacts, get going with teaching, making enough to live on etc.
I'm frankly amazed why anyone would bother with all that hassle and risk for the opportunity to work unsocial and long hours for very little pay. What would be the point? If it was to stay in Italy for a while and enjoy the culture etc, why not just come over for your 90 days and enjoy a bit of a holiday?
If you want to work long-term in Italy, that's a different point. Others have already pointed out how you can think about getting a visa. I have to admit that I haven't been bothered to turn on my TV or read an Italian newspaper in ages. Same old same old, politics blah blah, no credible government blah blah, economy going down the pan blah blah. So I haven't heard of any new regulations to allow in US citizens to work. But I think it would be highly improbable for the Italians to change policy without a functioning government, and to go against EU policy just like that. |
I appreciate your comments.
Interesting what you say about the government.
I agree with you that working without proper papers would not be perfect.
Looking back on my years of teaching abroad I don't know what is perfect.
Papers allow you medical among other things.
My jobs have been far from perfect even though I've had legal papers.
It seems if someone were to take a risk to be in a different country and make a go of it - Italy would be in the top 5 places.
I don't know what the answer is because people will do what they do.
But the conversation is very interesting none the less.
And as a side note - someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
But, it seems as though Italy does not have the same rule as Spain - that if you live there for so ___ amount of years you can apply for residency? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:28 am Post subject: |
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I think that the nun or professor routes are the most promising.
By the way, Italy cannot just change her immigration laws willy-nilly. She has made commitments to the European Union, and must conform to the Union rules. In much the same way that Texas cannot just decide to start issuing its own passports and coinage, or let in super-qualified EFL teachers from outside.
There is remarkably little chance of you getting full-time legal work in Italy, unless you qualify for some special consideration or naturalisation. Sorry. To persist in the misguided belief that the situation is otherwise is just to set yourself up for major disappointment. Very similar to the one I suffered when I was denied even a tourist visa to the US back in the '80s.
But remember always, that the Motherland awaits! The Motherland stretches open arms!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKAAEkf1MbU |
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Teacher in Rome
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:04 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you that working without proper papers would not be perfect.
Looking back on my years of teaching abroad I don't know what is perfect.
Papers allow you medical among other things.
My jobs have been far from perfect even though I've had legal papers.
It seems if someone were to take a risk to be in a different country and make a go of it - Italy would be in the top 5 places. |
What makes you think that a job in Italy (without legal papers) would be any better / more perfect than a legal job elsewhere? Do you understand what could happen to you if you tried to work illegally?
Here are some scenarios:
- any visitor gets free emergency treatment. You'd be assisted at hospital if you were run over, but for anything else, you're on your own. Some medication you can buy over the counter at a pharmacy, but you can't get on to a doctor's list unless you are enrolled in the National Health system (for which you need residency, which you can't get as an illegal)
- if your "employer" refused to pay you, there's nothing you can do about it
- you can't get a bank account or sign a tenancy agreement. You can't even get a mobile phone agreement. You get asked for (Italian) ID on an almost daily basis - to pick up a parcel at the post office, to accompany a CV etc etc
- if at any time the police stop you and ask you for your papers, you're in trouble. By the way, they can stop you at any time and ask for your ID - they don't have to suspect you of a crime.
- if you overstay your 90 day visit, get found out working, you can be deported and then banned from the entire Schengen area. So that would be France, Spain, Germany etc for 5 years.
And why would Italy be in the top 5 places to take a risk and make a go of it? Based on what criteria?? Do you know what's currently going on in Italy economy-wise or government-wise? How easy do you think it will be to get a job (where most employers won't be interested in you if you're illegal)? Why would anyone hire someone who can only stay 90 days anyway?
In my opinion, this is far from a "perfect" or even "acceptable" situation. It doesn't make sense from any way I look at it - whether legal or practical. As I said before, if you like Italy so much, come for a holiday! Then you can enjoy the lifestyle, culture, art etc without having to work 10-hour days looking over your shoulder all the time. |
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chica88
Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Teacher in Rome wrote: |
| Quote: |
I agree with you that working without proper papers would not be perfect.
Looking back on my years of teaching abroad I don't know what is perfect.
Papers allow you medical among other things.
My jobs have been far from perfect even though I've had legal papers.
It seems if someone were to take a risk to be in a different country and make a go of it - Italy would be in the top 5 places. |
What makes you think that a job in Italy (without legal papers) would be any better / more perfect than a legal job elsewhere? Do you understand what could happen to you if you tried to work illegally?
Here are some scenarios:
- any visitor gets free emergency treatment. You'd be assisted at hospital if you were run over, but for anything else, you're on your own. Some medication you can buy over the counter at a pharmacy, but you can't get on to a doctor's list unless you are enrolled in the National Health system (for which you need residency, which you can't get as an illegal)
- if your "employer" refused to pay you, there's nothing you can do about it
- you can't get a bank account or sign a tenancy agreement. You can't even get a mobile phone agreement. You get asked for (Italian) ID on an almost daily basis - to pick up a parcel at the post office, to accompany a CV etc etc
- if at any time the police stop you and ask you for your papers, you're in trouble. By the way, they can stop you at any time and ask for your ID - they don't have to suspect you of a crime.
- if you overstay your 90 day visit, get found out working, you can be deported and then banned from the entire Schengen area. So that would be France, Spain, Germany etc for 5 years.
And why would Italy be in the top 5 places to take a risk and make a go of it? Based on what criteria?? Do you know what's currently going on in Italy economy-wise or government-wise? How easy do you think it will be to get a job (where most employers won't be interested in you if you're illegal)? Why would anyone hire someone who can only stay 90 days anyway?
In my opinion, this is far from a "perfect" or even "acceptable" situation. It doesn't make sense from any way I look at it - whether legal or practical. As I said before, if you like Italy so much, come for a holiday! Then you can enjoy the lifestyle, culture, art etc without having to work 10-hour days looking over your shoulder all the time. |
For the record I was making a general comment about Italy.
It is my opinion that Italy would be nicer to work in than some countries I have been working in legally.
Its my opinion and I have a right to that as much as others may not agree or like it.
That said, I just wanted to have a conversation with some of those who have first hand experience in Italy.
Why?
Because thats when understanding happens.
I was curious about Italy as many people are.
A great deal of the work conditions out there for those teaching abroad are not right both with and without working papers.
Again, that is my opinion but I feel many would agree.
Conversation and the exchange of ideas is the only way information is made clear.
Individuals who assume I started the discussion because I'm getting ready to fly to Italy and work illegal would be assuming my stance.
As a side note however a school that was showing interest in me in Italy said some interesting things.
He said, he has hired Americans in the past.
But, he said hiring US citizens is a nightmare.
He also said if I come there he could tell me about some schools in Italy that would hire Americans.
Rather it would be legal or illegal I would not know.
And he also stated the economic situation in Italy is not doing well which makes it harder for US citizens and everyone in general to get work. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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That said, I just wanted to have a conversation with some of those who have first hand experience in Italy.
Why?
Because thats when understanding happens.
I was curious about Italy as many people are |
This is a conversation with at least some people who have firsthand experience in Italy. Teacher in Rome is trying to explain that working illegally is a bad option. TIR is in Italy, and has been for a long time.
| Quote: |
As a side note however a school that was showing interest in me in Italy said some interesting things.
He said, he has hired Americans in the past.
But, he said hiring US citizens is a nightmare.
He also said if I come there he could tell me about some schools in Italy that would hire Americans.
Rather it would be legal or illegal I would not know. |
In the past, it was easier to legally hire Americans.
The laws changed.
Now it is a nightmare.
If you went there, you would already be in Italy - without a legal work permit.
This employer is apparently willing to hook you up with schools which will hire illegal teachers.
Very nice of him.
Come on over, chica. And be sure to let us know how nice it is!
Many people will be interested in your experiences.
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chica88
Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I appreciate everyones comments.
I myself have no money to visit Italy probably in this lifetime especially if theres no job in it for me.
Those who do, more power to them.
In my experience I have come across many who work on an illegal status in my travels.
It is a personal choice.
Everyone has different things to weigh to come to their own personal conclusion with these things.
I've known people working illegal who make more money than I.
There are times when others seem to have it easier when I am bound by the school rules.
Do I think its smart or a good idea to work illegal?
It does not matter what I think.
I would not try to say one way to the other because the choice is personal made according to whatever circumstances may be in one's life.
That aside as stated in the first post I'm always interested in peoples first hand experiences in places I have not been.
First hand experience by those who have been in work conditions for in this instance Italy can give valuable experiences to what they have seen to be the case.
That is what interests me about Daves esl cafe is hearing from those who have lived it. |
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PeiPei0708
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:48 am Post subject: American that can teach English & Chinese |
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sooo...what if a person has a Master's in TESOL, CELTA certificate, 4 years in teaching English and could also teach Mandarin-Chinese?
Would a college/university in Italy get the work permit for that person? |
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Teacher in Rome
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:03 am Post subject: |
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sooo...what if a person has a Master's in TESOL, CELTA certificate, 4 years in teaching English and could also teach Mandarin-Chinese?
Would a college/university in Italy get the work permit for that person? |
Maybe. There are a few institutions in my area which offer Mandarin courses. (As far as I know, they are already fully staffed by Mandarin speakers resident in Italy.) It's well worth you checking out, though. |
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PeiPei0708
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe. There are a few institutions in my area which offer Mandarin courses. (As far as I know, they are already fully staffed by Mandarin speakers resident in Italy.) It's well worth you checking out, though. |
Institutions like.....a college or university? .....Or a language school?
I simply want to teach English in a college or university in Italy....not a language school. |
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