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Native Speaker vs. Polish Teachers of English
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Native Speaker vs. Polish Teachers of English Reply with quote

In recent years, Polish teachers have become increasingly interchangeable with the once mighty, venerated, unassailable native speakers or 'natives' as they are sometimes called.

What's your opinion on this controversial issue? I know there are some highly experienced teachers on this forum who remember the days when many language schools were 'native only'.

Can Polish teachers be just as effective teachers as natives, if not even better?

Should they teach every level?

Is it fair to pay them less than a native?

Are students with Polish teachers 'missing out' on opportunities to learn, for example, culture and slang?

Who would you choose if your child/girlfriend/husband/mother-in-law had to choose between lessons with a Pole and a native?

Are schools that split classes between native and Polish teachers and have Polish teachers teach English grammar in Polish, and the natives teach speaking and vocab 'on to something'?

Your opinions appreciated. Be respectful.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

I think there are some outstanding Polish English teachers now and splitting classes is a great idea.
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john123



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Master Shake
In my view, splitting classes is a bit patronizing (for the 'natives', who are assumed to have little skill when it comes to explaining grammar). I also detested it when the Polish teacher would rock up five minutes before the lesson and seek confirmation about what I had done as opposed to looking in the register. Lastly, I could never trust the other teacher to do the job properly, and maybe vice versa, so I felt like I had to be constantly revising what the Polish teacher had done. Trust is not easy to come by in language factories. I don't think schools are onto something here. I think it's a terrible way to organise a teaching curriculum.

Generally, it is 'still' fair to pay Polish teachers less than natives because, based on my observations, they exhibit unnecessary arrogance in language schools, at IATEFL conferences and workshops, and wherever else. I have met far/observed far more natives actually providing a worthwhile service. It's not a question of who's better or who's worse. I've always found it difficult to talk 'development and methodology' with a Polish teacher because they don't give a darn.

Regards

John

ps I tried to be pleasant.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not Poland-specific but East European in general.....

Picking a teacher for a girlfriend or family member I would ALWAYS go with a qualified native speaker with a positive attitude over a local unless there was just no way to afford a native speaker in the market. I certainly have seen locals who make decisions for economic reasons though.

That said, I have met quite a few native speaker teachers who I wouldn't suggest over a good local teacher.

Splitting a class isn't something I have ever had to deal with although it's common enough to see schools offer the lower end of the curriculum with locals and the mid to upper end plus prep classes taught by natives.

You meet good local teachers and ones who aren't so good, just like native speakers. I have met several local country teacher who could teach up to Upper Intermediate and a couple who could do Advanced. Several could do the prep classes as well.

As for pay, it's the market forces that determine wages. Polish teachers are welcome to charge what they want and see how many students they get or offer up their CV with a salary expectation equal to a native speaker's and check the responses.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, reading your post brought memories of sharing classes with teachers in the past, most of these negative.

While it's great fun to discuss students in a shared class with the other teacher, and it's always helpful to get a second opinion about a student, I find shared classes a pain. This is true even when sharing with a responsible, professional teacher. It's just too much hassle and you don't get to know the students as well, and they have to constantly readjust to different teaching styles and expectations.

As for Poles teaching all levels, I don't think they should teach C2, even if they have passed proficiency.

In all the schools I've taught in, Polish teachers are treated equally and generally paid equally. This seems fair to me. I have met some really great Polish teachers and learned a lot from them.

But the language at C2 is just so nuanced it's quite a rare few who can attain this level. Forget about teaching it and dealing with tricky questions from students on the fly. I found teaching CPE quite challenging at times myself and had to do the exercises first in order to avoid giving a bad explanation. And I occasionally simply disagreed with the book too...

I've also met a fair few Polish teachers who, tho they may have passed CPE umpteen years ago, had crap English and would probably have a hard time in a C1 class. These were often the ones who spoke Polish the most in the staff room and were counting the seconds until the word day was over and they could ide do domu (go home).
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Seems like you lot are focusing far too much on how it affects you. Sharing classes is better for the students and that's what matters. It's got nothing to do with feeling patronized etc. A Pole can explain a concept in 30 seconds...it's efficient and the students get it. Concept checking questions and jumping about like a gibbon are all fine and dandy in theory but adults like facts, especially in a place like Poland. Total immersion, especially at very low levels is nuts. Lots of Polish philologists speak English like us these days. We should be paid the same. I'd rather have an MA qualified Pole than Scott from Idaho on a gap year or some newbie off a CELTA. Native speakers come into their own at the higher levels IMHO. Furthermore, cooperating with colleagues should be no big deal and we should strive to do it more. Record keeping should make that much easier. Experienced teachers should be paid much more whether they are Polish or English etc...this is the distinction that language factories rarely make.
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simon_porter00



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good teacher can explain a concept in a way that could be understood irrespective of whether they are native or Polish.
To say/suggest/for a school to split classes is a cop out.
Having native speakers teach lower levels, this "total immersion" is an excellent idea on the understanding the teacher is good/capable teaching at that level.
The concept here is that the teacher must have experience and be good/effective at what they do. This is not rocket science. What happens is, is that schools dump natives in classes that they don't have the training/experience for (this might be because TEFL is not a "career" in the eyes of some cough cough bullsh1t) and everyone suffers.
And I'll take you up as well with the idea that Polish Philologists speak English like us. I've been working in Poland as a TEFL teacher for 7 years, **although please bear in mind this is not a career** and in that time, out of all the Polish teachers that I've worked with in several schools in two cities, I can count about 5 or 6 who, if I was the owner of a school, I would be happy with.
At the BC, when I was there, there was beef between the native teachers and some of the Polish teachers and I can understand why. The numbers of Polish teachers in the BC have continued to outnumber natives this year (so I've heard) and for the school (not just the BC) this is simply due to demand and supply. As TEFL is not a stable career, native teachers come and go (this is not to say of course that all native teachers are good and should stay of course).
Native teachers at higher levels - once again, it's pointless putting a native teacher in front of CPE/ students if they aren't ready for it. I hate teaching CPE. It stretches me and after all my years of experience I still have difficulty building a rapport and explaining things adequately (although there are many reasons for this not least I think the CPE is a pointless exam - anyway that's a different discussion). Putting a CELTA newbie there would be murder.

**Please bear in mind the career comments are based on another thread and shouldn't be used as an excuse to divert this thread.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

So why is it that so many native speakers who have been immersed in Poland for over a decade don't speak Polish above an elementary level? I think it's fine For native speakers to focus on speaking, vocab and pronunciation and the 3 other skills while Polish teachers focus on the grammar, which can be recycled and added to by the native speakers in a school. When I worked for the BC...my BC Centre Manager was the one who first suggested to me that total immersion was not efficient with absolute beginners. I agreed with him. I've met tonnes of really good Poles over the 17 years I've taught in or had an association with Poland. Moreover, students seem to like it, so from a business sense it's the right thing to do. I like class sharing....students get to deal with different idiolects.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
So why is it that so many native speakers who have been immersed in Poland for over a decade don't speak Polish above an elementary level? I think it's fine For native speakers to focus on speaking, vocab and pronunciation and the 3 other skills while Polish teachers focus on the grammar, which can be recycled and added to by the native speakers in a school. When I worked for the BC...my BC Centre Manager was the one who first suggested to me that total immersion was not efficient with absolute beginners. I agreed with him. I've met tonnes of really good Poles over the 17 years I've taught in or had an association with Poland. Moreover, students seem to like it, so from a business sense it's the right thing to do. I like class sharing....students get to deal with different idiolects.
I use total immersion with beginner YL's all the time. I establish routines, model, demonstrate, use a lot of gestures and non-verbal cues, and before long, they're no longer beginners. Using L1 is a mistake with kids because, once they see that you can/are willing to do it, it's really hard to switch them back into using English again.

There are fewer and fewer adult beginners left in Poland. And of these, not many are really interested in learning English. However, the few times I've seen adult elementary courses run over the years, they've always been taught by a Polish teacher. I'd say it's a safe bet there was more than a little L1 used in those lessons, but as to whether this actually benefited the students in the long run...

Anyway, a native speaker specializing in teaching 'elementary adults' in Poland would really be barking up the wrong tree, so it's not a discussion worth delving into.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

So let's go back to b*tching about the place. I don't teach in Poland now...just live there......I teach mostly absolute beginner to intermediate out here with the odd IELTS group thrown in. We share classes and I think it's helpful. Whilst your doing your non-verbal cues and drawing pictures the non-native speaker can just use 2 words to give the exact meaning....of say the difference between over and above......or circle and round. I think that's more efficient and less time consuming. Of course 95% of the time, they use English. Some learners find immersion extremely stressful.....I know I did when I was learning French. Furthermore...you ducked the question I posed about total immersion and native speakers' poor Polish.

Anyhow...as you said...it's not worth delving into....so the Polish forum's back to talking about the price of fish. If you get a contract teaching military or police workers then you'll be sure as sh*t teaching low level adults mostly.
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simon_porter00



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 505
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calm down dear ....
Why is it that when someone starts a discussion on here and someone differs with sb else's opinion that toys get thrown out of the pram?

DP thinks splitting classes is a great idea.
MS (and I for that matter) think it's a bad one.
Cue tears and tantrums.

I, personally, wouldn't want to share my classes either with another native or Pole for the reason that I develop a better rapport with my students, they learn what they get from me, how to improve, how to get better marks, what they should do and how I teach. In my experience, when you multiply all these expectations or this acclimatisation by 2 it confuses the student. Not to mention when one teacher gives a damn and the other doesn't.
I've taken over classes from teachers who couldn't be bothered and trying to then rescue the class and get it working in the way it should takes most of a semester.
If you've been working as a teacher for 2/3 years and you don't know how to adequately explain the fundamentals in grammar then someone should really be kicking your ass and the whole idea of "the Polish teacher will teach you grammar and the native will be the performing monkey" is a terrible, stupid and self-defeating idea.
I do think, the students L1 should be used in class, but only over FCE level as there really is no need to use Polish in the classroom to teach them the difference between over and above because what will happen is that the student may automatically think all the collocations that work with those prepositions in Polish will work in English which of course they don't.
But this is just my opinion and I'm quite happy to be told "Listen Simon, you've got completely the wrong end of the stick" because even after all my years teaching I still am learning every day.
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sparks



Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you can be totally awesome like muah and be native speaker who, after ten years in this place, speaks Polish well enough to explain and translate in the native tongue. I'm da boss! Smile
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: totally calm Reply with quote

Totally calm mate. Been on the beach most of the day.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think students should speak only English in lessons from intermediate level and above. I teach mostly students under 18 and if I catch them speaking Polish in the lessons, there are consequences (they lose a point or have extra homework).

Students learn far more from giving an explanation of something to their partner in English (even if it's not a brilliant one) than they do by simply translating it into Polish. What's more, they reinforce the language by asking for a pen and chatting with their partner after they've finished a task in English, rather than lapsing back into L1.

I'd be a hypocrite if I insisted my classes speak English, and then I spoke Polish whenever it was easier to explain something in Polish. That said, I do rarely use Polish in lessons when I know it will spare the class a lengthy explanation of a minor vocabulary item (e.g. trout, hake, cod).
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: totally calm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
Totally calm mate. Been on the beach most of the day.
Oh, so you've been on the beach. It all makes perfect sense now. Calm down everyone, it's ok now - he's been on the beach.

Did some kid go wee-wee on your beach towel? Smile
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