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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:54 am Post subject: yeah |
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Of course Shake, couldn't agree more with the cod, hake, trout thing. I've been toying with the idea of designing cheat sheets for grammar in Polish, especially re the tenses, which students can refer to outside the classroom. There really is no need to speak Polish above the intermediate level...yep I agree with that too.
At low levels...I think there is a need sometimes....which is where a non-native speaker comes in really handy. Each to their own. While planning can be a hassle when sharing...IMHO....its pros outweigh its cons.
Off to the beach again....it's 30+  . |
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john123
Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Lucky for some.
Regards
John. |
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delphian-domine
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| dragonpiwo wrote: |
| So why is it that so many native speakers who have been immersed in Poland for over a decade don't speak Polish above an elementary level? |
Good question. Either way, it's a pretty lame state of affairs to live somewhere for so long and not be at least functional in the language. Not to mention that when the ESL industry finally implodes at the bottom end (I'm told at least one tax office has really started to hit the users of umowa o dzielo contracts) - if they haven't learnt Polish, what else are they going to do?
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| I think it's fine For native speakers to focus on speaking, vocab and pronunciation and the 3 other skills while Polish teachers focus on the grammar, which can be recycled and added to by the native speakers in a school. |
You're forgetting one thing - Polish teachers don't necessarily agree with this, nor do they want to be stuck teaching only grammar. I know several very good Polish teachers that would never accept being second best like this. |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:13 am Post subject: yeah |
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| Yeah I know, but in practice the skills lessons are calved up and shared. On balance I think sharing's good. |
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salamiandbacon
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:40 am Post subject: |
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There are good teachers, there are bad teachers. Some are native speakers, some are not. I'd rather have a good non-native teaching than a badly-prepared gap year chancer who is still pissed from the night before.
The non-native has invested a lot more in becoming a teacher and can often be relied on to behave professionally. It isn't something they did to get out of working in McDonalds back in the UK.
Just because they speak Polish doesn't mean they will. What about Polish teachers who teach English to students whose L1 is not Polish? There are more than a few of those about in Poland now. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| .........and not just in Poland. look around the Middle East and you will find lots of Poles, mainly female, teaching English. |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: yep |
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| As I said earlier...there are lots of very good Polish English teachers around now. Most have MA's and many have lived in the UK and the States. Schools hire native speakers mostly for the marketing. The vast majority of native speakers are, by no means, more effective really. They just like to think they are. Of course that is not true in all cases and for certain really high level stuff, native speakers are crucial. Sorry if I hurt anyone's ego. |
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sparks
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 632
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Since many of the higher-level students, in my experience at least, mostly want (or think they want) to speak, and have you correct them, maybe throw in some vocab or interesting tidbit here or there, I think natives still serve a purpose. Of course they could do this with a Polish teacher but I believe that Polish teachers have a bit more, let's say, traditional approach to teaching and a bit less speaking. I team teach a bit and this is what I hear, grammar and info from the Polish teacher and speak with the native. The students seem to like it and as long as the lessons have a little structure and you generally stay on topic, focus on a particular grammar point a bit and they get many chances to speak, all is alright. |
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NilSatis82
Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| salamiandbacon wrote: |
There are good teachers, there are bad teachers. Some are native speakers, some are not. I'd rather have a good non-native teaching than a badly-prepared gap year chancer who is still pissed from the night before.
The non-native has invested a lot more in becoming a teacher and can often be relied on to behave professionally. It isn't something they did to get out of working in McDonalds back in the UK.
Just because they speak Polish doesn't mean they will. What about Polish teachers who teach English to students whose L1 is not Polish? There are more than a few of those about in Poland now. |
Quite. Whether someone is a native speaker or not is largely irrelevant as to whether they make a good teacher. Obviously, having a high level of English is important (which generally favours native speakers) but this isn't the same as having a having strong language awareness (which doesn't necessarily favour one group over the other in my experience). I would argue that language awareness is just as important, if not more so, than general language proficiency.
Also, a good knowledge of students' L1 is very useful but I haven't met that many native speaker teachers with a level of Polish that would really benefit them in class. I'm talking more about being able to refer to differences between L1 and L2 rather than speaking in Polish, although I don't see anything wrong with using Polish occasionally, especially at lower levels.
Splitting classes might be appropriate for teaching the four skills at higher levels but organising classes along grammar/speaking + vocab seems ludicrous to me and I wouldn't want to work for any school that thinks it is a good idea. For general English classes, you're either good enough to teach all the skills integrated with grammar and vocab, or you're not good enough to be a teacher.
Apart from being discriminatory (and therefore wrong), paying Polish teachers less purely on the basis of not being a native speaker would probably be against EU law. Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened in Poland, just that I've never heard of it. |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:30 am Post subject: erm |
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Pay differentials are and have been standard practice for ages in many schools. In the 90's it caused no end of tension and petty jealousy where I worked. I think...it's on the wane though.
I'm with Sparks on this...the students seem to like the sharing thing. |
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Master Shake
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| NilSatis82 wrote: |
| Also, a good knowledge of students' L1 is very useful but I haven't met that many native speaker teachers with a level of Polish that would really benefit them in class. I'm talking more about being able to refer to differences between L1 and L2 rather than speaking in Polish, although I don't see anything wrong with using Polish occasionally, especially at lower levels. |
Yes, knowing the differences between L1 and L2 is very helpful. But you don't have to be fluent in Polish to have this knowledge. After teaching Polish learners a while, I think most figure it out on their own.
Polish teachers can have a advantage here as they have this knowledge naturally as a result of learning English. Whether they apply it in class is another story.
| NilSatis82 wrote: |
| Apart from being discriminatory (and therefore wrong), paying Polish teachers less purely on the basis of not being a native speaker would probably be against EU law. Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened in Poland, just that I've never heard of it. |
I'll wager few schools still have a separate pay scale for Polish vs, native speaker teachers (Does anyone know one that does?). However, hourly pay rates are negotiated at many schools. I'm sure, due to higher student demand, a native speaker can negotiate a higher rate than a similarly qualified Pole.
On the flip side, many schools have shied away from native speakers because they're too unreliable. |
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sparks
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 632
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| On the flip side, many schools have shied away from native speakers because they're too unreliable. |
When I was thinking of taking some Saturday classes, I went for an interview with a school in Kabaty, the end of the metro line and then a 15 min. walk from there. They had had some bad experiences with natives and were thus distrustful and consequently offering 70 PLN/90 min. on a Saturday morning. I wonder how long before natives are paid less than Poles, perhaps that's how it should be... |
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Master Shake
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| sparks wrote: |
| When I was thinking of taking some Saturday classes, I went for an interview with a school in Kabaty, the end of the metro line and then a 15 min. walk from there. They had had some bad experiences with natives and were thus distrustful and consequently offering 70 PLN/90 min. on a Saturday morning. I wonder how long before natives are paid less than Poles, perhaps that's how it should be... |
Does what the school told you really make sense though? They've been burned by native speaker teachers in the past. Yet they still offer them work anyway, and pay them less. It sounds like they gave you a line.
I work with an ever increasing number of Polish teachers. I noticed there is an increasing amount of Polish being spoken in the teachers' room. I've noticed that worst offenders are usually the people whose English isn't so hot. Last year, someone even complained (it wasn't me), and the Polish teachers had to have a chat with the DoS as a result.
I know it's more natural to speak to someone in your native language, but Polish in the teachers' room is unprofessional and lazy, IMO. If you are fluent enough to teach English to CAE students, it should be no problem for you to complain about the same class to another teacher in English.
Polish in the teachers' room is also off putting and alienating to teachers new to Poland who don't speak Polish. |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Master Shake wrote: |
| sparks wrote: |
| When I was thinking of taking some Saturday classes, I went for an interview with a school in Kabaty, the end of the metro line and then a 15 min. walk from there. They had had some bad experiences with natives and were thus distrustful and consequently offering 70 PLN/90 min. on a Saturday morning. I wonder how long before natives are paid less than Poles, perhaps that's how it should be... |
Does what the school told you really make sense though? They've been burned by native speaker teachers in the past. Yet they still offer them work anyway, and pay them less. It sounds like they gave you a line.
I work with an ever increasing number of Polish teachers. I noticed there is an increasing amount of Polish being spoken in the teachers' room. I've noticed that worst offenders are usually the people whose English isn't so hot. Last year, someone even complained (it wasn't me), and the Polish teachers had to have a chat with the DoS as a result.
I know it's more natural to speak to someone in your native language, but Polish in the teachers' room is unprofessional and lazy, IMO. If you are fluent enough to teach English to CAE students, it should be no problem for you to complain about the same class to another teacher in English.
Polish in the teachers' room is also off putting and alienating to teachers new to Poland who don't speak Polish. |
I saw this same pattern in Azerbaijan (less so in Ukraine). Aside from the exclusion of non-local language western teachers, it fosters that whole US vs. THEM attitude which affects many teachers' POV (including the native speakers). It also amazed me that those whose English was marginal seemed to make little effort to improve.
Like you comment, there were some who you could tell were conscious of the inclusion factor as well as often seeking input during their prep on pronunciation, usage, synonyms and constructions. They always struck me as the "better" teachers and I agree their English was usually at a higher level than the others.
Those whose skill was nowhere near teaching the upper level courses and continually asking for help with their acquisition were particularly odd. They beg for you to go to lunch with them to speak English and but show little interest in working on development during the hour and a half you are in the teacher's room.
Of course, sometimes they are simply passing a quick social moment with another local but I also winced when students would come to the door with questions only to be addressed in local languages and prospective students in the lobby were greeted with local language rather than a bright, "Hello, how can we help you today!" |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ecocks wrote: |
Of course, sometimes they are simply passing a quick social moment with another local but I also winced when students would come to the door with questions only to be addressed in local languages and prospective students in the lobby were greeted with local language rather than a bright, "Hello, how can we help you today!" |
i worked for a school where the DoS would demand at each monthly meeting that the teachers speak only English in the hallways including other places where the students were within earshot, and the biggest offender of this ended up being the DoS nearly every time. it was simply impossible for her or the Polish teachers to abide by this simple rule, they simply never did it. once they walked out of class, Polish started right up. and the break room was nothing but Polish. I didn't mind after a couple years because my Polish was getting good but in the beginning, I felt completely isolated. |
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