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teacheratlarge · Joined: 17 Nov 2011 Posts: 192 Location: Japan

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/hay-festival/10086135/Hay-Festival-2013-Oxford-professor-asks-for-grammar-pedants-to-relax.html

So how relaxed are you with your grammar?

Not sure I am in favor of they're/their/there being unified, but I certainly see his point, that language is continually changing.

There are cases though, where grammar is important:

"Let's eat, grandpa!" and "Let's eat grandpa!" may result in different storylines (and different meals Smile

).

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:08 am Post subject:

Not relaxed at all. And, I'd argue that it is not 'my' grammar' or 'your' grammar, but standardised grammar. All this excuse-making for those who just can't be bothered to learn standard spelling or grammar. It is rude of them.

Languages change, it is true. But sadly, they change because of ignorance. That is not 'evolution' or 'progress', as others sometimes say.

I have battalions of Grammar Riot Police booting up as we speak, ready to defend the virtues of standardised spelling and grammar, hic!

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Grammar is King ! Or in the case of Shasha, "Supreme Leader" !

We have the ludicrous situation now of so-called teaxhers of language who would not know the subjunctive if it bit them on the derriere !

I suggest three years of Latin plus German or Russian for anyone who wants to be an English teacher ! ESPECIALLYT if they are Yanks ! That will sensitise them to the need for Grammar.

Omnia vincit labor !

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:41 am Post subject:

Dunno about the Yanks part. Plenty of UKians are in need of a good re-education.

But agree with all else. Bring on Latin grammar, followed by anything Slavic!!

sager · Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 35 Location: Germany

Sashadroogie wrote: "Not relaxed at all."

Neither am I.
Or as my American colleagues would say: "I'm also not relaxed." Rolling Eyes

scot47 wrote: "I suggest three years of Latin plus German...."

I have five years of each. Cool

sager

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:48 am Post subject:

Is anybody else annoyed by the 'grammar nazi' tag that is always bandied about so... liberally? The fascist piggies were not noted for their erudition, after all. So, I suggest we found a new party, a 'Grammar Commie Party' to combat linguistic sloppiness - starting with the university in the Telegraph article. For proper, systematic re-education of language offenders, nobody can match our side of the totalitarian wing!

The Hammer and Sickle can emblazon our banner, flanked by a couple of apostrophes...

'☭'

the_thinker · Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Posts: 68

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

I note in the original article linked by the OP that the audience for this misguided nut 'gasped' at the thought.
Even the guy's colleagues thought this was a bad idea.

As a teacher who works with final-step students (mine are heading out to the real international stage, in some cases at quite high levels), I'm not in any way going to send them out with grammar, punctuation, or spelling that will be considered controversial by an international audience. Most of them already carry the badge of 'non-native speaker.' In the eyes of a fair number of ignorant Yanks and Brits and etc, non-native speakers of English are already at a disadvantage in terms of credibility.

It would be a serious disservice to the students if I were to allow them to further lower their perceived credibility by their use of substandard grammar, punctuation, or spelling.

santi84 · Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: under da sea

I've heard a few teachers say that English grammar doesn't really matter. I also know that those teachers have never tried to learn a second language themselves Laughing

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:05 pm Post subject:

They may have tried, but they usually do not succeed...

'☭'

Dedicated · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 972 Location: UK

I actually find Professor Simon Horobin's speech at the Hay Festival quite surprising and contradictory.

I have just finished reading his book "Does Spelling Matter?" (published in March, 2013 by Oxford University Press), in which Horobin clearly states that spelling matters and, more to the point, our existing spelling matters. It is a cultural achievement and a record of the language's history.

His book is a comprehensive and scholarly lesson in why we spell the way we do and why, in order to preserve the richness, subtlety and history of our language, it is right we keep doing so.

Horobin usually writes about the history and development of the English language and spends a lot of time studying medieval manuscripts. He posits that language does evolve over time and standardized spelling is only a recent phenomenon. I don't think he had the non-native speaker or EFL world in mind.

His words at the Hay Festival have been interpreted as undermining the fight to improve children's failing literacy standards. In 2010, Oxford's 7 year olds ranked worst in Britain for Reading and Writing in Key Stage One tests at primary school.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:12 pm Post subject:

Among my present colleagues are a few who espouse the "grammar don't matter" mantra.

Interestingly enough, these all share two characteristics: 1. most or all of their previous teaching experience was at the "primary school" level, where the teaching consisted mainly of "tossing the beanbag around" and singing "Jazz Chants;" and 2. they couldn't explain how to form or when to use, say, the present continuous tense if their very lives depended on it.

Unfortunately, I am often the recipient of their "graduates" when those students move onward and upward.

Regards,
John

the_thinker · Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Posts: 68

I don't understand why everyone is talking about grammar. In the article, all that is mentioned is the suggestion of some spelling reform, which seems to me to be entirely reasonable. You can disagree but I don't see what it's got to do with teaching or not teaching grammar in the EFL classroom.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:15 pm Post subject:

Dear the_thinker,

Did you read the OP?

"So how relaxed are you with your grammar?

Not sure I am in favor of they're/their/there being unified, but I certainly see his point, that language is continually changing.

There are cases though, where grammar is important"

Regards,
John

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:40 am Post subject:

Dear Johnslat

My health is continually changing too, just like my mood. But there is a clear difference between a health status that is desirable and one that is not. So changes in health may not be such a good thing.

Similarly there is such a thing as a good mood, and also a bad mood. One can change to the other quite rapidly. Some changes are welcome, but not all of them.

Just because something is changing does not mean it is changing for the better.

Join the Party, and take a stand against the growing linguistic barbarism that is threatening to engulf us all!

'☭'