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Legal Action
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Lesface



Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Legal Action Reply with quote

With July 3rd looming, and with the uncertainty that is pervading this board at the moment I'd like to raise the question of legal action against some of our more villainous hosts - one in particular that is well known to readers of these pages.

For those of us whose contracts expire after the 3rd, what can we do if they refuse to pay up the remainder of my contract? In fact, I am being told that I will not be paid for the last few weeks of my time in KSA before they boot me out.

The company in question has an office in London and Washington (USA), and is a registered business in the UK.

Can legal action be taken against them from the UK, and how do you do it?

In March I read a thread from someone who claimed he'd gone through the courts and WON.

Anyone know anyone about this guy?
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15149
Location: Respice post te! Hominem te esse memento! Memento mori!

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they have a presence in the UK you can try the Small Claims Procedure.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/law_e/law_legal_system_e/law_taking_legal_action_e/small_claims.htm
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PattyFlipper



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 572

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether or not legal action could be pursued through the English courts would principally depend on two factors:

1. Who is named as the employer in the contract of employment? Is it specifically Exxxxx Exxxxx UK Limited, or some other entity?

2. Does the contract of employment contain a ''governing law and forum" clause, which states which country's laws apply and which courts have jurisdiction in the event of disagreement? If such a clause exists, and it states that the contract is subject to Saudi law and the Saudi courts should have jurisdiction to determine disputes, then it would not usually be possible to take action through the English courts.

In the absence of a governing law and forum clause, it might be possible for anyone recruited from the UK by Exxxxx Exxxxx UK Limited (even if only acting as an agent for another entity) to commence proceedings in the UK, however since the contract was to be wholly performed in Saudi Arabia, the defendant might successfully argue that the English courts have no jurisdiction in the matter, particularly so if the UK company is not named as the actual employer.

I've also just checked the UK companies register, and it looks like the registered office of the company to which I think the OP is referring is a mail drop or business accommodation address. which likely means that even if an action were successful, there would be no UK assets from which to satisfy any compensatory award.

Any attempt at litigation in the UK would be throwing good money after bad, in my opinion.
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Lesface



Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it specifically Exxxxx Exxxxx UK Limited, or some other entity?


Yes, got it in one!

Quote:
Does the contract of employment contain a ''governing law and forum" clause, which states which country's laws apply and which courts have jurisdiction in the event of disagreement?


Sadly no.

Quote:
Any attempt at litigation in the UK would be throwing good money after bad, in my opinion.


I fear you might be right on this one. However, if anyone comes forward who has successfully done this I would love to hear from you!
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 10957
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Legal Action Reply with quote

Lesface wrote:
For those of us whose contracts expire after the 3rd, what can we do if they refuse to pay up the remainder of my contract? In fact, I am being told that I will not be paid for the last few weeks of my time in KSA before they boot me out.

Can legal action be taken against them from the UK, and how do you do it?

I agree with PattyFlipper; trying to take the company to court will likely be more costly to you in the long run.

By the way, you didn't mention what type of Saudi visa you're on, but if you hold a business visit visa (AKA work visit visa) or temporary work visit visa, then you have zero legal recourse.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I know the guy in question very well! Top banana, good morale on the bus, wasn't a tightarse, made everyone laugh etc.

So, what I am going to do is denounce everything Party Flipper has typed out via my good mate who successfully sued e#e+ and got all his money.


Whether or not legal action could be pursued through the English courts would principally depend on two factors:

1. Who is named as the employer in the contract of employment? Is it specifically Exxxxx Exxxxx UK Limited, or some other entity?


Simply put - if a link can be proved that Education Experts UK Ltd are the same company as their partner company in Saudi Arabia, they can be took to court for monies owed. This is easily proved by the way so please PM me on how to do this.

2. Does the contract of employment contain a ''governing law and forum" clause, which states which country's laws apply and which courts have jurisdiction in the event of disagreement? If such a clause exists, and it states that the contract is subject to Saudi law and the Saudi courts should have jurisdiction to determine disputes, then it would not usually be possible to take action through the English courts.


Doesn't matter, basically, a limited company in the UK can be sued for monies owed even if events took place outside the jurisdiction of the EU. As long as you have a resident address in the UK, you can take a British limited company to court - which of course the company in question are. I haven't got the particular case on me but this has been in force in 2006 and people have been able to sue British companies for monies owed for work abroad.

In the absence of a governing law and forum clause, it might be possible for anyone recruited from the UK by Exxxxx Exxxxx UK Limited (even if only acting as an agent for another entity) to commence proceedings in the UK, however since the contract was to be wholly performed in Saudi Arabia, the defendant might successfully argue that the English courts have no jurisdiction in the matter, particularly so if the UK company is not named as the actual employer.

As long as a link between the British company and the company in Saudi Arabia can be proven to be partner companies then you can sue the UK company for monies owed abroad.

I've also just checked the UK companies register, and it looks like the registered office of the company to which I think the OP is referring is a mail drop or business accommodation address. which likely means that even if an action were successful, there would be no UK assets from which to satisfy any compensatory award.

The companies house address is a PO box but they do have an office and staff in London as a bailiff in a big van found out about three weeks ago when he went round to remove their tables, chairs and computers and the company paid up forthwith. I will happily PM the address of the office to anyone who wants it.

Any attempt at litigation in the UK would be throwing good money after bad, in my opinion.

Your opinion on this matter is not worth two farthings I am afraid me old china.

Simply put, they have of yet to give anyone any proper notice, even on their own contract it is one month, have they done that yet? Nope, so they are in breach of their own contract. Secondly, Harvey Wallbanger and the folks in London are complete morons, when my mate took them on - they didn't turn up to court but by then, my mate had plenty of email evidence to ensure that even if they did, they would have lost. The judge at Swansea county claims court knew that the action was outside the country and the EU but still gave it to the claimant.

So what you need to do from now on is this.

Write to Wallbanger and the Gorilla via email from now on, emails are admissible in court. Even if they don't reply to them, the judge will ask why they didn't reply to correspondence.

Clarify how much they owe you in future emails, do not talk to them in person or on the phone, make sure all correspondence is written. Keep your cool when you see them or speak to them, it is important not to lose it whilst you are still in Saudi Arabia, you have no rights and they have plenty of wasta - hit them hard when you get back home where you both have equal 'wasta'.

Depending on how much they owe you is how much you will pay the small claims courts, if you are an individual suing a limited company, they have to attend the nearest court to your address.

They have breached the contract, so make sure you factor in any months that you have missed because of the amnesty, not their fault but not yours either - and they have to compensate you.

You will get all money you have laid out for court action and the bailiff back when the bailiff turns up to their office to seize their goods, they will not pay it willingly, when you have your verdict from the small claims court, you need to transfer it to a high court judgement which gives the bailiffs a lot more power than a county court bailiff does.

It will take 3-4 months. It took me longer because my mate had to trace their real address seeing as the address at companies house was a PO box.

If you take them to court - you will get your money - my mate did and he says good luck to you all and to drop him a line via me if you need any more advice. Wink
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Linguist



Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Robbie. It's good to have this type of information available for everyone.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linguist wrote:
Thanks Robbie. It's good to have this type of information available for everyone.


If I don't get banned by the powers that be, I am here to help you all to get whats yours via my good pal.
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Lesface



Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all who have taken the trouble to research and reply, especially Robbie.

Quote:
They have breached the contract, so make sure you factor in any months that you have missed because of the amnesty, not their fault but not yours either - and they have to compensate you


Really, this is at the heart of the matter. Given that the company in question are accountable to UK law, the following link may be of interest to others, who like me, are trying to work out where they stand:

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/contract-rescission-lawyers.html

Didn't learn Arabic, but will come home with a layman's knowledge of UK contract law. Sign of the times?
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lesface wrote:
Thanks to all who have taken the trouble to research and reply, especially Robbie.

Quote:
They have breached the contract, so make sure you factor in any months that you have missed because of the amnesty, not their fault but not yours either - and they have to compensate you


Really, this is at the heart of the matter. Given that the company in question are accountable to UK law, the following link may be of interest to others, who like me, are trying to work out where they stand:

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/contract-rescission-lawyers.html

Didn't learn Arabic, but will come home with a layman's knowledge of UK contract law. Sign of the times?


From what I can see, they have to give you written notice in terminating a contract and compensate you accordingly. They will do neither. Secondly, and this is a point 'nomad soul' made, your legal status in the country is of no relevance and it would be the company to bring this point up on why they can't pay you, I doubt the people concerned are going to admit in a court of law that they knowingly bring people to work illegally and that is why they won't pay them.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 10957
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robbie_davies wrote:
Secondly, and this is a point 'nomad soul' made, your legal status in the country is of no relevance and it would be the company to bring this point up on why they can't pay you, I doubt the people concerned are going to admit in a court of law that they knowingly bring people to work illegally and that is why they won't pay them.

Ignorance of the law is never a good defense for either side.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
robbie_davies wrote:
Secondly, and this is a point 'nomad soul' made, your legal status in the country is of no relevance and it would be the company to bring this point up on why they can't pay you, I doubt the people concerned are going to admit in a court of law that they knowingly bring people to work illegally and that is why they won't pay them.

Ignorance of the law is never a good defense for either side.


Basically, the court date in the UK is a simple affair of who owes who money, the cloudy legalities of working on a business visa has no relevance on the day. If it is found that the defendant owes money then the claimant wins, simple as that. Very Happy
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 10957
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without knowing the specifics of the situation, it's all conjecture at this point. However, it certainly illustrates why it's best to avoid signing on with what the OP referred to as "villainous hosts."
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
Without knowing the specifics of the situation, it's all conjecture at this point. However, it certainly illustrates why it's best to avoid signing on with what the OP referred to as "villainous hosts."


Not really, most of the teachers know they have to be out on July the 3rd and word around the sandcastle is that they will be lucky to get their final pay pro-rated. Which will be in line with what the employer does every year. The teachers there are being sensible to find out where they legally stand in regards future action.
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robbie_davies



Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like The Gorilla and Wallbanger are trying to start a campaign of disinformation around the sandcastle, telling teachers that they WON their court case.

The truth is that they were so badly embarrassed by my pal, that they didn't even turn up to defend their case and was won easily on the day. Wallbanger, a 'respected' academic, was severely outclassed and hammered in the run up to the court date in email exchanges, what neither of the 'dangerous brothers' seem to know is that there are enough teachers at the sandcastle who have legal documentation that clearly shows the company took a hammering in court and that the teachers under their charge have legitimate recourse for any potential thievery.

A message of warning to The Gorilla and Harvey Wallbanger.

You are knowingly going to rip off your teachers and make hundreds and thousands of pounds but this time, this year - you won't be getting away with it when all the British teachers wake up to the fact that you can be got at. Telling teachers that you won when you got highly embarrassed on the day of action is a last gasp tactic of the desperate - enjoy whatever money you steal - because I think it will be last big pay packets you are going to enjoy whilst being employed, it all had to end sometime boys - you were always going to meet your match one day.
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