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A candid conversation about EFL in China
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 8612
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must have missed your question. Was it buried in there somewhere? Please highlight it for me.
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
I must have missed your question. Was it buried in there somewhere? Please highlight it for me.


Sorry, I must've deleted it but what do you figure test familiarity and studying can make? Half a band (for the academically inclined) and 2 bands for the average native-speaking TEFL newby?

To be fare, I guess it would be worth comparing the profiles of IELTS (AT) test-takers as well? What percent are undergrads and in what fields of study: humanities, sciences, business,...?
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems ttttompats was righttt aboutt degrees and TTTEFL certttts.

To work in Vietnam, you now need to notarize both your police check and degree by both your Dept of Forgn Affrs and your Vietnam embassy before they'll issue you a work visa. I assume the rest of Asia will soon follow suit. China already seems headed that direction anyway.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 8612
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure exactly how much of an impact test preparation would have on IELTS ratings, but I'd guess it is a lot more than just half a band. Take Academic Writing Task 1. Few if any test takers would know instinctively how to preparea report based on the graphs or diagrams in the rubric. How many would even know that failing to state an overview leads to all sorts of penalties, as does failure to respect the word count? Not many at all, in my experience.

As for saying native speakers would be more affected by test preparation, I'm not convinced of that either. Have you some source that suggests that native speakers show a greater disparity? Please share if so.
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Have you some source ...?


No, just speculation that arose from the disgruntled Vietnam backpacker forced to sit an IELTS and achieve the same minimal score as local teachers in lieu of a TEFL cert. While it appears no different than Japan or Korea's where it's 'No Experience? No TEFL? No Problem!', Vietnam does expect more as having to sit an IELTS, not a 5 min grammar test and my job ad survey suggests. And although there's no correlation between FT qual's and IELTS (AT) scores, (GT) scores more closely reflect FT job ad qual req'ts. As of yet, there's no evidence for the OP's assertion:

The OP wrote:
I can't vouch for [that non-kimchi eating country], but people generally say the teaching standards are higher than China.

But if you really want to teach English, I suggest you do the CELTA and get a year or two of experience somewhere which isn't China, [kimchi land], or Japan and then head to China. The two years of experience will give you experience in an environment with some teaching standards and allow you to start working on the DELTA – assuming you have appropriate support.


Why not in a country that actually offers the DELTA? Aren't there more likely to have DELTA grads as DoSers? And China's much closer than either Korea or Japan.

Forgive me Sasha, but I think it's time to broaden the discussion:

1. Can anyone provide contrary evidence that TEFL job qual req's in China are indeed lower than kimchi country or komono island?

2. Am I making too much of the 'prefer TEFL' to distinguish China from it's Asian neighbours?

3. Are TEFL req'ts in China rising, falling or not changing, and if so, for what sector?

4. What effect, if any, has recent economic slowdown had on the private sector TEFL qual req's/initial teacher training standards?

5. What are the trends for CLIL, immersion, and int'l schools in China?

6. How representative are these 2010 poll results and would it be worth running again or elsewhere to get a broader sample?:


What TEFL qualifications do you have if any? (asked of China Job Forum members)
Degree in (Applied) Linguistics (or far more than 100 hrs of formal training) [ 6 ] 17%
Cambridge ELT Certificate (CELTA) [ 8 ] 23%
Trinity College Certificate in TESOL (CertTESOL) [ 2 ] 5%
TEFL Certificate Course - Classroom (approx 100 hrs with or w/out observed teaching) [ 6 ] 17%
TEFL Certificate course - Online [ 2 ] 5%
Private Language School Training (less than 100 hrs) [ 1 ] 2%
Other certification (have I missed something?) [ 3 ] 8%
None [ 6 ] 17%
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Harbin



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LongShiKong wrote:

Why not in a country that actually offers the DELTA? Aren't there more likely to have DELTA grads as DoSers? And China's much closer than either Korea or Japan.


The person in question WAS asking about a country in Asia that offers a DELTA and does have higher quality teaching standards than China.

If you still haven't guessed, that country is Thailand.

Yep, you read it correctly: I suggested that the anonymous person work in Thailand or some country other than China, Japan, or Kimchiland for at least two years before he came to China because the quality of EFL in SE Asia is terrible. Is the quality of EFL in China and Kimchiland awful? It sure is. I got quite a few questions about working in China during my DELTA interview.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 8612
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you share the gist of some of the questions that the Delta interview asked you about China? It would interesting to hear more.
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backtothefront



Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Posts: 42
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by backtothefront on Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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backtothefront



Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Posts: 42
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..

Last edited by backtothefront on Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 2535
Location: Chengdu, Sichuan, PRC

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

backtothefront wrote:
I taught for three years in Kimchi land, one year in China and adhoc in the UK. It has left me in bad shape to take the Delta. You simply don't learn anything teaching 'their way'.


Oh!

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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Bud Powell



Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 854

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Delta blows a masters away in my opinion.

Where did you study for your masters degree?
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 2535
Location: Chengdu, Sichuan, PRC

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Powell wrote:
A Delta blows a masters away in my opinion.

Where did you study for your masters degree?


Very Happy

I second BP's question and ask it as well.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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Bud Powell



Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 854

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

backtothefront wrote:


Studying both a Masters level linguistics course and the Delta module 1 I can say the Delta is much more difficult. Clearly anyone can write an essay but for the three hour Delta exam you need to know your stuff.
It isn't fair to compare a masters with a CELTA. The CELTA albeit a prestigious first step qualification is a certificate whilst the masters is post-graduate qualification. A masters you need to compare with the Delta which is a level 7 post graduate qualification. A Delta blows a masters away in my opinion.


Where did you study for your masters, and what was the subject of your research thesis?
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