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Taiwan vs China university rankings

 
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romanworld



Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Taiwan vs China university rankings Reply with quote

A recent article in the China Post has reported that:

National Taiwan University (NTU) fell two notches to 82nd in the 2013/2014 world university rankings released yesterday by a British education network.

adding,

NTU remained the only school in Taiwan to be listed among the top 100 in the annual QS World University Rankings compiled by the QS education network.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2013/09/11/2003571876

I wanted to know how many universities China had in the top 100, so I checked the league table and discovered that China have two: Peking(46) and Tsinghua(52) I then counted how many universities China had in the top 400 and discovered it was 9, while Taiwan had 7. It seems that in the race to the Premier League, China is winning.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking/range/001-200

This of course doesn't bode well for the MOE's plan to poach students from China and place them in Taiwanese schools. Only last week the China Post reported that the MOE was launching an initiative to attract overseas Chinese students to offset the plummeting birth rate.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2013/09/03/387975/Taiwan-to.htm

China is investing heavily in its universities and attracting overseas talent by paying better salaries and offering flights, accommodation and free medical care. Taiwan simply cannot compete with this. China's rise to economic power runs parallel with the rise of its tertiary sector, which shows no sign of slowing down. On the contrary, with substantial investment from overseas, along with lucrative joint venture partnerships with western universities, China is moving ahead like a locomotive and leaving Taiwan far behind. With this in mind, it appears that the MOE initiative is doomed to failure because not only will Chinese students want to stay home in China and study at their own prestigious institutions, but Taiwanese students, who can speak the language and navigate the culture, will also start to migrate towards China for a better education with the possibility of a better job thereafter. It seems that China's economic rise will be the cause of Taiwan's fall . . . and not a shot was fired in all the commotion.
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romanworld



Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention which indicators are used by The QS education network to determine rankings. Here they are:

1. Academic reputation.
2. Employer reputation.
3. Faculty to student ratio.
4. Citations per faculty.
5. Proportion of international students.
6. Proportion of international faculty.
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Old Surrender



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 393
Location: The World's Largest Tobacco Factory

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I work for a Sino-U.S. university venture in China. The Western media is greatly overplaying the rise of China's universities. Aside from the top-tier schools that you mentioned, a Chinese university degree is merely a participation certificate. The only way they can fail a Chinese-taught class at the host university for my program is through truancy. If you come to the China board you will hear that sentiment echoed as well about other universities.

My students are stunned when they realize that, yes, your American profs will fail you. No, we don't take bribes. Talking the to Chinese dean will not help you get a better grade; however, you can write a nasty review about me on the Baidu PostIt forum. Have a Happy Everyday!

I do agree, though, a dismal birthrate is not good news for Taiwan.
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romanworld



Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Surrender wrote:
I work for a Sino-U.S. university venture in China. The Western media is greatly overplaying the rise of China's universities. Aside from the top-tier schools that you mentioned, a Chinese university degree is merely a participation certificate. The only way they can fail a Chinese-taught class at the host university for my program is through truancy. If you come to the China board you will hear that sentiment echoed as well about other universities.


While this is true, I'm not sure it's relevant. The fact is that China has 2 universities in the top 100 and the trend is that more will follow soon. Rankings are important today and they can make or break the reputation of a university. If a school is ranked high, students want to go there simply because it will bode well for future employment. And universities today are quick to advertise at their websites and their glossy brochures how a degree from their school will translate into employment for its graduates. No wonder the Telegraph today posted a list of the Top 12 universities in the UK for graduate employability, which ranges from 94% to almost 98%. Which student wouldn't want to attend one of these most prestigious schools? A low ranking is the kiss of death for a university.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10213652/Graduate-jobs-top-12-universities-for-getting-a-job.html?frame=2631969
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Old Surrender



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 393
Location: The World's Largest Tobacco Factory

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, in the short-term, until companies start to realize China universities are churning out grads who have no idea what's going on. Sure these kids get jobs because China is hot right now, but....... crap, man, these universities are terrible. I walked past a class today where a Chinese prof was saying a string of English words to into a mic trying to do some outdated ALM methods. Teacher says words, the response is from the kids is a hushed and muted "jskdfjsllskjfskljlksf." No error-correction as the ALM method prescribes! (As if it's even a useful method anyway, but I digress.)

I have seen a professor here smoking in class and reading from a book -- the students were on their cell phones on QQ or whatever.

I have helped a student go to grad school to America who thought her GPA for her Chinese degree was less than stellar. She tells me that she can go to summer school to get those grades up. I was impressed that she would take the initiative to do that, but she giggled, and said no... "summer school" was merely a fee one pays to get the grade they really want.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't good kids burning the midnight oil to come out of graduation as a tank ready to conquer the battlefield that is the Chinese white-collar job market, but these OMG CHINAR UNIS RISING stories have got to stop unless they start walking in some of the classrooms and take a look at what's really going on at the non-elite unis.

NE PoDunk U St. Tech is probably rougher academically than most Tier 2 universities in China.

An old grizzled lit guy once told me: "I don't need to fail them. Life will." Once these kids start failing at life, employers will notice, and then eventually Chinese unis reps will start to suffer. I'm going to be honest: I update my bailout plan each academic year in case the s*** hits the fan with my program.

How does the lack of quality instruction on the Mainland bode for Taiwan? I don't know. I know nothing of Taiwan universities, but I doubt Taiwanese students want to come to the Mainland when Mainlanders are clamoring to go to Hong Kong universities. Hong Kongers are fed up with Mainlanders coming to their unis.

I visit Taiwan annually as my "Chinese vacation from China." I'm curious, though, how is the academic integrity of Taiwan unis? Is it merely a participation certificate as it is on the mainland, or do the kids actually have to turn in decent work via analytic and synthetic assessment?
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PhoenixSpirit



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

romanworld wrote:
Rankings are important today and they can make or break the reputation of a university. If a school is ranked high, students want to go there simply because it will bode well for future employment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10213652/Graduate-jobs-top-12-universities-for-getting-a-job.html?frame=2631969


Yet the vast majority of those Universities listed there rank pretty poorly on University League Tables. Something employers and graduates pay far more attention to.

For example, a degree from LSE/King's College or numerous other Universities will look better than one from Glasgow Caledonian or Cardiff Met.
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romanworld



Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhoenixSpirit wrote:
For example, a degree from LSE/King's College or numerous other Universities will look better than one from Glasgow Caledonian or Cardiff Met.


Agreed. Which student doesn't dream of going to Cambridge or Oxford or Harvard? And which employer would not want to employ a graduate from any one of these most prestigious institutions?
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romanworld



Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double post.

Last edited by romanworld on Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Old Surrender



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 393
Location: The World's Largest Tobacco Factory

PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

romanworld wrote:
PhoenixSpirit wrote:
For example, a degree from LSE/King's College or numerous other Universities will look better than one from Glasgow Caledonian or Cardiff Met.


Agreed. Which student doesn't dream of going to Cambridge or Oxford or Harvard? And which employer would not want to employ a graduate from any one of these most prestigious institutions?


Depends on the field and the person doing the hiring. My previous career was journalism. Sure, the journalism school at Columbia is prestigious, but the grads at state schools like Kansas, Iowa, and Missouri got their hands dirty digging through public records, delivering multiple stories on deadline, and shadowing grizzled vets while on internships. Those were the kids who could perform in the workplace, and those were the kids who got hired.
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romanworld



Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Surrender wrote:
Yeah, in the short-term, until companies start to realize China universities are churning out grads who have no idea what's going on.


While I share your concerns, and agree with them, the fact is that the academic abilities of students don't come into the equation when ranking universities. As noted about, a university can have a student population made up of dummies, but a the end of the day the following criteria is what matters:

1. Academic reputation.
2. Employer reputation.
3. Faculty to student ratio.
4. Citations per faculty.
5. Proportion of international students.
6. Proportion of international faculty.

Thus the trend these days, even at American universities, is to employ teaching assistants to do the teaching, while the professors are freed up to focus on writing and publishing. The poor old students, who pay top dollar to see the academic superstars in action, are sadly left short-changed.
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Basilm87



Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Midg�rd/London/Beijing

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Old Surrender's point of view that most, if not all, unis in mainland China seem to lack quality (there are exceptions but extremely rare)

I am now at Beida learning some Zhongwen, before starting my PhD next term in the Sociology department (my major is actually Sociology of Religion, however there are barely any religious studies departments in mainland China, I personally only know of one, in Sun Yat Sen University I believe).
With that said, there are loads of students here at China's #1 Uni who are just walking zombies. They have good grades, decent memory and can recite whole passages of useless information, but when they actually need to think of an abstract question or motivate their answer (no matter practical or theoretical) their eyes haze out and they become like a living dead, I have never experienced something similar before coming to China.

Reputable uni or not, it won't blossom into something grand without outsiders to coach in this process, and start the process of teaching the kids to critically think, analyze , ask questions, anything besides recite passages and answers....this is like junior high school in Europe ...more or less.

Why universities like Beida and Qinghua are high ranked (especially Beida), is because they have several Americans and British (also Europeans, mainly Germans, but a clear majority of Americans/Brits) guest lecturers and soon-to-be retired professor teaching a course or two for no more than a year. During that year of employment here at Beida they are "stressed/pushed" into publishing an article in the uni's publishing house, which obviously results in raising the academic reputation and citations greatly. Especially if it happens to be at least a half-decent professor / associate professor writing the article, on behalf of Beida.

I have heard many stories, and confirmed by an elderly professor from California, that Beida apparently pays enormous sums of money to enable these professors to publish something in Beida University's Press name. I've heard stories of anywhere between 400,000RMB to up to 1,500,000RMB per school year being offered, depending on department and which Uni the professor is from, and if he/she is considered "decent" (even in the so-called Western academia).

This is the key to these high rankings, plus that the chinese state is pouring in cash into beida and other "top 10" Chinese universities to make a name for themselves. However, this system of "buying" western scholars for a year, every year, is not sustainable, especially as the large sums from the government (in the billions of rmb), if I understood a chinese student correctly, will cease in a few years when a total of like 10 billion rmb had been given to Beida from the state throughout a 10 or 15 year timespan.

An associate professor of Chinese Literature here at Beida, at the age of 37 gave me similar amounts of these figures, while complaining at his "great" salary of 4000RMB/month and an included small apartment opposite to the east gate of Beida. I don't doubt he's genuine, however I know that my current hanyu laoshi is being payed 10k/month (according to herself, however she is a professor and spent some years in the US at Westpoint I believe). Only sidetrack of their salaries are these "packages" of cash that many teachers receive every year, which according to several people working here and studying ,are directly taken from "research funding"...how much of these funds are pocketed into individual teacher's "benefit packages", I got no idea.
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