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Why only Vietnam & Thailand offer the DELTA in Asia?
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject: Why only Vietnam & Thailand offer the DELTA in Asia? Reply with quote

China's been the largest EFL market on the planet for over a decade but neither China, Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Singapore offer the course. The most they offer is the Mod 1 exam and only through the British Council or British Embassy/Consulate .

Any idea why that is? It's not like Thailand & Vietnam have higher standards for teacher trainers & D'soS given the job ads and forum comments I've read.

PS: I also posted this on the Thailand Forum.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes you think anyone on here could do anything more than guess at the reasons?

My guess is Korea and Japan are expensive destinations and the DELTA or equiv has little or no standing in those countries. Ergo it's a bad business plan to invest in running those courses.

China? Are you kidding me?
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skarper wrote:
What makes you think anyone on here could do anything more than guess at the reasons?


Those who've taken the Delta and/or worked at IH or ILA might know something I don't.

Why would I kid about China? Are the standards any different in Thailand or Vietnam?
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Let's see if they can help. I have a DELTA Equiv, have worked at Apollo (some vague connection with IH I believe) and I don't know the answer FWIW.

My understanding is that China has even lower standards than Japan and Korea.
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not even sure you can do a CELTA in Japan or Korea, never mind a DELTA. But particularly in the case of Japan, can you imagine attempting to live in Japan for the duration of the DELTA with no income? You've just doubled the price of the course at least. When you add in how much you'd have to pay the trainers if they were based in Japan or Singapore, and it really can't compete on price with Vietnam or Thailand (I believe Indonesia also do it). And then there's a little fact that even senior positions in most of the countries you mention often don't even require a CELTA, so there's no local demand either.
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With Stupid wrote:
...can you imagine attempting to live in Japan for the duration of the DELTA with no income?


That's got to be it!

Korea, Japan and China do have CELTA centers but neither of China's two IH centers even offer it.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 8641
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cost factor is probably the main reason. However, Cambridge has fairly rigid standards regarding the institutions that can run their courses, and regarding the place of work of the course participants. (Although with the modular course, this latter point might be moot.) Many criteria apply, and one of the most basic is class size. Classrooms with over 20 learners, for example, are not going to be conducive to learning through communicative methodology, so there is little point in running a Delta course in such conditions. Perhaps that's partly the reason for the lack of courses available?
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Perhaps that's partly the reason for the lack of courses available?


That can't be it. The only large classes in Asia are in public and post-secondary schools---same as anywhere else. I think it has more to do with a lack of demand for a much costlier and less teacher-centred western educational model that only appears to discredit itself when comparing OECD EQAO scores.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
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Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have no idea what you mean by 'appears to discredit itself'. Don't know what conclusions you are trying to draw from references to the OCED either.

Perhaps it might be more useful to look at countries where general English is barely learnt and not spoken by the population at large, and where the Delta is not available. There seems to be at least a correlation Very Happy
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Have no idea what you mean by 'appears to discredit itself'.


Take a policy initiative such as America's 'No Child Left Behind'. Doesn't the name alone suggest something not quite right?
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 342

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LongShiKong wrote:
Sashadroogie wrote:
Perhaps that's partly the reason for the lack of courses available?


That can't be it. The only large classes in Asia are in public and post-secondary schools---same as anywhere else. I think it has more to do with a lack of demand for a much costlier and less teacher-centred western educational model that only appears to discredit itself when comparing OECD EQAO scores.

Well if you look at the top of the latest PISA study, you have Finland, with small class sizes, modest teacher salaries and the lowest number of hours in school in the developed world. You also have South Korea, where teachers are paid a huge salary to teach large classes, and kids spend every spare hour in classes of one kind or another. So two completely different systems, both neck and neck at the top. And finally, top of the pile is Shanghai (which isn't really a fair comparison to a whole country, obviously) which is unique in being an area where they have undergone massive education reform to switch to a more Western-style skills-based education. But they still haven't got rid of the Asian cramming culture, so 80% of students still attend after school school.

But the success or otherwise of wider education is fairly irrelevant to language learning, which is a skill. You can't learn English by having a teacher lecture to you any more than you can learn guitar by listening to Jimi Hendrix. Rote learning might help with certain aspects of language learning (automaticity of certain key phrases) but it's not going to turn you into a fluent speaker.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 8641
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LongShiKong wrote:
Sashadroogie wrote:
Have no idea what you mean by 'appears to discredit itself'.


Take a policy initiative such as America's 'No Child Left Behind'. Doesn't the name alone suggest something not quite right?


How any of this relates to the Delta is what I do not follow.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah - I'm losing the thread of this argument. It seemed a bit off in the OP but now it's just taken a turn that I cannot understand at all.
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vabeckele



Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just keep on losing threads.

Anyway, I think the policy of having hair no longer than 2.5 cm in N. Korea just right, what do you think?
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 881
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skarper wrote:
Yeah - I'm losing the thread of this argument.


We were speculating why the Delta course isn't more widely available in Asia. Sasha speculated it might be due to large (>20) class sizes which I refuted, although I agreed that cost is a factor (both for poorly paid FTs taking time off to attend such courses, but even more so for their employers to reward them for doing so--how many Asian employers demand it). Then I surmised that perhaps the western-based, student-centered pedagogical qual's such as the Delta might not appeal to so-called Confucian sensibilities despite how westernized they may be in their thinking, particularly when the western model appears so 'left behind' as I argued. Perhaps I'mWS, in referring to PISA scores, confused you by including Korea and Shanghai with Finland. It confused me too.
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