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Should you take a job if...
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The Great Wall of Whiner



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4908
Location: Blabbing

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way I would go on a tourist visa is if the school paid for my flight upfront as they do in Korea.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
From D-M
'New teachers with little experience or nothing in the way of related qualification seem to arrive on tourist visas, then change later. We get a chance to have a look at them and ensure they fit in before investing in the visa'.
Boy, does that say it all!!
I'm totally shocked to see this from D-M, a hitherto respected poster on this site.
Unscrupulous.


Im replying to a previous comment that said the tourist visa issue is for the convenience of the employer ... and my frank post shows why some employers may take that route.

Unscrupulous it may seem ... but that is the route my employer takes, not me. I have no part to play in hiring, firing, contracts, negotiations and advertising for new employees. Perhaps I have mislead by using 'we' rather than 'they', but as Im currently employed at my school it seems more fitting to use 'we' when discussing them.

We (I use 'we' again) are an employer that provides legal visa status following a visa change in HK. This hiring practice may be 'sharp', but it does exist. Two of my current colleagues arrived during the summer and converted visa in HK. Again, I dont think I wrote in favour of, or in opposition to this hiring practice, but a frank observation of what happens.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2317
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks D-M - all cool from my side.
Best
NS
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Lord Bafford



Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 55
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, no, no!!

Don't do it!!!
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 2611
Location: Chengdu, Sichuan, PRC

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Great Wall of Whiner wrote:
The only way I would go on a tourist visa is if the school paid for my flight upfront as they do in Korea.


...and then make sure that they won't take the cost of the flight out of your paycheck.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2317
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mystery of the HK-convertible L visa persists, courtesy of our colleague D-M.
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teenoso



Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 217
Location: east china

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
The mystery of the HK-convertible L visa persists, courtesy of our colleague D-M.

It's certainly mysterious in terms of which provinces will allow you to HK -convert - Guangxi and Jiangsu seem to allow this , Guangdong definitely does not (according to previous threads). No idea about the other provinces.


Last edited by teenoso on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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OBwan



Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Happy Town - Haikou - L to Z Reply with quote

I'm a newbie here and this thread touched on the same subject that concerns me. Just got hired from this job: http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/china/index.cgi?read=30358
Their website: www.happytowninternational.com

I'm excited from reading about Hainan. But they told me to arrive Haikou on a tourist visa and they'll convert it later to a work visa when I'm in China. From what I've read on the net and on this thread, this is sounding fishier by the minute.

When asked why not process my work visa while I'm in my home country, they said that Haikou is different from the rest of China and it's the way visas are processed here.

Could this be right? Or am I about to step into a trap? Has anyone heard of this school?
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3259
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no wei!

here in hainan, visas cannot be converted.
(of course, maybe happy town has connections....)
do not go to hongkong, do not collect 200 rmb!



according to their ad, they provide "Sponsored Z visa."

but on their website FAQ:

"The easiest and cheapest way to go about a "Z" Visa for China is by getting a simple "L" Tourist Visa and then switching this over once you're here. Regardless of what you may have heard, it is the most common way to go about it (the majority of us have done this, China works different than home). If you have a problem doing this then let us know, please do not decide not to come because of it."
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
The mystery of the HK-convertible L visa persists, courtesy of our colleague D-M.


More I think about it, perhaps 'converted' might be the wrong word. NB - I havent done this myself, but colleagues have, the most recent was in September of this year. He went to HK with all the Z visa invite paperwork, requesting that it be processed in HK, and came back with a Z visa, giving the usual 30 days to be converted to RP etc etc.

So perhaps it would be more accurate to say the L visa is cancelled, and a new Z visa is applied for. Assuming the original L visa is a one-entry jobby, it would no longer be valid when the holder enters HK. So at that time the passport holder is no longer in possession of a valid Chinese visa. He / she then applies for a Z visa and begins the visa process anew.
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Sarcastro



Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 85
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denim-Maniac wrote:
Again, this was brought in after an employee went to HK on the school bought ticket, stayed two nights in a school booked hotel, and then flew home with the schools visa money!

So it doesnt always mean the employer isnt legit ... it just means they are careful. It can be inconvenient to a new employee, but I can understand why.


How long ago did this happen? If it was before 2013 it was probably done before China "normalized" their visa prices with the US. By and large, visas are pretty cheap to get, usually between $30-60 for most countries and now about $130 for US citizens. Even with expedition prices it only comes to about 1000 RMB. Its not like he ran off with 1000s of dollars. All total with stay, visa, and transport It was probably no more than a 3000RMB loss, less than half of your runner's salary.

Doesnt really seem too legit.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2317
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that you are totally at the mercy of the school while working on a non-work L visa.
If they refuse to pay you - what you gonna do?
If they say after 3 weeks we've reconsidered our FT needs - what you gonna do?
If having you there is a defacto trial and they say you're unsuitable - what you gonna do?
Just because some provinces seem to be able to get L to Z conversions in HK, doesn't mean your school will follow through.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sarcastro wrote:
Denim-Maniac wrote:
Again, this was brought in after an employee went to HK on the school bought ticket, stayed two nights in a school booked hotel, and then flew home with the schools visa money!

So it doesnt always mean the employer isnt legit ... it just means they are careful. It can be inconvenient to a new employee, but I can understand why.


How long ago did this happen?

Doesnt really seem too legit.


It was in 2010, I knew the person who did it as I had worked with her before. You're right, the money was small potatoes really, but it was a massive inconvenience for the employer who was expecting her to come back and teach classes as scheduled. That was her way of doing a runner I guess. This is one reason (may be other, I dont know) for the school reimbursing visa costs over the course of the contract.

We always blame the employers but sometimes, just sometimes, other FT's have made things hard (or harder) for us. Another, perhaps unrelated example, is our class dinners. We have a class dinner once a month and the school pays for the teachers to dine. Last year it used to be that you would tell the office you were planning a dinner and they would give you the money no questions asked. Turned out a few of the teachers were just pocketing the money and not going for the dinners!

Now this year we have to pay for the class dinner up front and claim the money back ... not an issue really, but another example of having to reap what other people sow.
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 2611
Location: Chengdu, Sichuan, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
The mystery of the HK-convertible L visa persists, courtesy of our colleague D-M.


Oh! Make mine an Audi TT convertible please.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non Sequitur wrote:
The problem is that you are totally at the mercy of the school while working on a non-work L visa.
If they refuse to pay you - what you gonna do?
If they say after 3 weeks we've reconsidered our FT needs - what you gonna do?
If having you there is a defacto trial and they say you're unsuitable - what you gonna do?
Just because some provinces seem to be able to get L to Z conversions in HK, doesn't mean your school will follow through.


This is very true of course ... but generally most / many contracts will have a probation period, and the same applies for all the above in that period. Id be much happier arriving on a Z visa, and I have done for my last two contracts.

It is worth noting that problems are reported on this forum regardless of how one arrives in China, and regardless of the sector they are working in. Caution is advised any time you uproot and make a big decision like working in China.

A school with good feedback online and contact with current and previous employees who say good things is probably a safer bet than a school with negative feedback who wont let you contact an employee, regardless of the visa status you are travelling on. (All IMO of course!)
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