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Clarity On Law
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princesss



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 131
Location: japan/indo/aust

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Jakarta TEFL Black Lists Reply with quote

I'm not sure exactly what BekasiWhistle was referring to. Based on what he said I'd guess that TBI threatened to black list him all over town. Now Jakarta old hands know it isn't as simple as that but it was probably just an attempt to terrorize him into keeping quiet. It's all very well for Chezal to say it's an empty threat but most teachers don't want threats of any kind, do they? It's these kind of antics which are giving Jakarta a bad name with teachers. And believe me go to other Asian countries and teachers don't like what they hear about Jakarta.

Do you think we need a black list thread? This one has stopped being about clarity on the law.
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mgawhat



Joined: 15 Jan 2014
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone for your responses. At this point its clear my best bet is to wait until I'm on the ground in the fall to see what may or may not be available to someone who doesn't meet the letter of the law.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main thing to look for is someone who can promise you a KITAS. This will provide you with security. Some school chains can get them, despite the teachers not having the official qualifications. A KITAS will provide you with peace of mind during your stay. It is what every expat in Indonesian wants.
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ryanlogic



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 62
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Chiming in Reply with quote

I'm a soon to be grad from the United States who has more or less exhausted
all the other forums and threads about teaching in Indonesia on other sites.

I want to take a CELTA class in Indonesia and then look for entry level jobs while I am there... The following thread outlines some of my ideas:

http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/42280-Is-this-a-stupid-idea

I will have bachelors degrees in Sociology and International studies by the end of this summer... Obviously not a degree in English literature. This is the main and final roadblock I seem to face when thinking about moving to Indonesia.

Here's another thread where this law has discouraged me from pulling the trigger:

http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/42470-Looking-for-chill-places-to-get-teaching-experience

I mean how risky would it be to show up and try to find a school willing to provide KITAS for someone with legit degrees and CELTA but no English background?
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Chiming in Reply with quote

ryanlogic wrote:
I mean how risky would it be to show up and try to find a school willing to provide KITAS for someone with legit degrees and CELTA but no English background?


I'm not sure who can do that for apart from EF. It is abundantly clear that EF have a special relationship with the Indonesian authorities and can get KITASes for people without the right degree. For example, the EF Surabaya group boasts they have 40+ expats through their 11 schools. It is completely unbelievable that all of 40 of these teachers, or even very many of them, have degrees in English.

If anyone else knows another large school chain that can get around the rules, they haven't mentioned them on this forum. The value of a KITAS should not be underestimated. If you have a KITAS, the government has already accepted you, so you not vulnerable to Immigration raids. If you get a VKU visa (business consultant) or a tourist visa, schools might throw you under the bus if Immigration raids.
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ryanlogic



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 62
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Chiming in Reply with quote

bradleycooper wrote:
ryanlogic wrote:
I mean how risky would it be to show up and try to find a school willing to provide KITAS for someone with legit degrees and CELTA but no English background?


I'm not sure who can do that for apart from EF. It is abundantly clear that EF have a special relationship with the Indonesian authorities and can get KITASes for people without the right degree. For example, the EF Surabaya group boasts they have 40+ expats through their 11 schools. It is completely unbelievable that all of 40 of these teachers, or even very many of them, have degrees in English.

If anyone else knows another large school chain that can get around the rules, they haven't mentioned them on this forum. The value of a KITAS should not be underestimated. If you have a KITAS, the government has already accepted you, so you not vulnerable to Immigration raids. If you get a VKU visa (business consultant) or a tourist visa, schools might throw you under the bus if Immigration raids.


This is exactly why in looking at EF.

It seems to be the only middle ground between breaking the law, and having a degree in English.

I would be returning to the US to get a M.Ed or moving elsewhere after a few years experience so I'm considering roughing it with EF.
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ryanlogic



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 62
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still it's a little hard to believe that they expect all English teachers to have a degree in English + TESOL certification of some sort.

I could see if they wanted people with teaching credentials or degrees specific to teaching English... But I don't see how a degree in English literature would equip someone to teach English as a second language over me...

A legit TESOL certification like CELTA would put me at the same level as someone with a degree in English + CELTA without experience.

I know a lot of people majoring in English and typically they do the same kind of work as someone studying social sciences with the addition of a grammar class and an introduction to linguistics. A lot of them end up doing quite poorly in foreign language classes whether it be due to lack of interest or whatever else. But it makes you wonder.

I happen to think that my experience learning other languages in and out of the classroom would make me a much better EFL teacher than most of the English majors I know. I've taken Spanish I and II honors and currently take Arabic classes. I feel like I'm more familiar with the language learning process than most typical English lit majors.

I recently read an biographical article written by an American English teacher in Indonesia. It was published in promotional school newsletter at a school I was researching.

It was the most cumbersome and ridiculous thing I had ever read. It was over the top with unnecessarily big and long words, tricky phrases and complex ideas about his teaching philosophy. I had to read it twice to get the gist of whatever he was saying. He included a link to his personal website which had listed his degrees and qualifications. I followed some links to his YouTube account which had short clips of him explaining things like the "English subjunctive."

I feel bad criticizing the guy, but It was painfully clear that he was high on his grammar horse and riding it for all it was worth. I wonder how he fares in the classroom.

I had an Arabic teacher who constantly tried to explain grammar (mostly while speaking in Arabic). she often took up most of the class time explaining things way beyond our level and I ended up retaking the class cause I didn't learn anything. There's no doubt in my mind that she was a genius and a very sweet lady... However, she wasn't a good language teacher.

Just because someone has a Phd in mathematics doesn't mean they will be a good high school algebra teacher...

Anyway, I just think there is truly very little difference between someone with a degree in English lit. and someone with degrees in other writing and reading intensive subjects.

I think any social science BA + CELTA should be more than enough to satisfy visa requirements. It doesn't matter what I think though.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryanlogic wrote:
Still it's a little hard to believe that they expect all English teachers to have a degree in English + TESOL certification of some sort.

I think any social science BA + CELTA should be more than enough to satisfy visa requirements. It doesn't matter what I think though.


Join the club. Everyone in Jakarta knows the DIKNAS regulations make no sense. But you shouldn't believe the hype. DIKNAS has made these rules in order to be able to extort more bribes from language schools- they are classic rent-seekers, trying to get a bigger cut of the pie. They have no interest in educational standards. After all, they haven't acted on numerous complaints against Rumah Bahasa, who employs nothing but 'teachers' on tourist visas. They are only interested in getting uang suap- bribes. They are using these new regulations to line their pockets. Everyone in the industry knows that you can 'solve' these problems with a dollop of cold hard cash.
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p1randal



Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are so many variables that go into what you are talking about. Whether you are going to teach in an EF environment where it is geared towards grammar and survival or if you are in a National/International school geared towards TOEFL/IELTS prep and the like. Also a lot has do with the style of class at the school as different schools are looking for different types of teachers.

In general I think the requirements are good, as people with English degrees "should" have a better knowledge of the language than others. Granted there will be outliers and examples of people who do not have the required skills.

As stated above, Indonesia is kind of like the wild west and what is true one day, may not be true the next.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 64
Location: SumUt

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Chiming in Reply with quote

ryanlogic wrote:

This is exactly why in looking at EF.

It seems to be the only middle ground between breaking the law, and having a degree in English.



Not necessarily. EF may be the only "big chain" language mill that can get KITAS for candidates without English degree, but it doesn't mean they are absolutely the only employers (of teachers) who can do so. Some NatPlus schools, for example, might be able to swing it if they are willing to hire you.

Definitely agree that having KITAS (and IMTA) so that you are "street legal" is the most important thing.
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